Les Miserables Book Discussions
Part One
Carmon: ok, let's start...hello everyone!
tim: hi
tim: i mean HI!
Jamie: hi, Mrs. Friedrich...and everyone
Carmon: i've been in the sun today, walking all over carmel, driving by the pacific ocean, so i will try to concentrate in this starbucks and keep my mind on our talk
Tim: okay
Carmon: did you all finish the first section of the book? It should be called fantine in whatever translation you used.
Kate Nickelby: I finished fifteen min. ago
Tim: i'm about two hundred pages away from being finished with the whole thing
Pieter: yeah, I finished it.
Tim: i've had a lot of reading time
Tim: planes
Kate Nickelby: Aren't you righteous?
Carmon: wow
Jamie: yes, I finished
Tim: righteous?
Tim: huh?
Carmon: ok, i'm using the translation by lee fahnestock
Tim: brb
Jamie: righteous? I NOBLY restrained myself from reading further than Fantine, even though I'm SURE I could have read the whole thing by now. twice.
Carmon: it has a picture from the musical poster on the front
Pieter: I'm using the translation by Victor Hugo.
Pieter: who wrote the book? anybody know the actual author's name?
Kate Nickelby: I'm using fahnestock too
Carmon: Pieter, you don't read french, you can't even pronounce it
Jamie: um...I'm using a translation by Charles Wilbour
Jamie: a friend of Hugo's, it says...
Carmon: Wilbour did the classic translation, the one i'm using is "based" on it, and it's unabridged
Kate Nickelby: That's mine!
Carmon: i didn't find any parts particularly laborious...and i didn't need to skim over anything
Pieter: I know french, mom.
Pieter: didn't you know that?
Carmon: non
Tim: i dont' know where my book is at the moment, it's unabridged, with a picture of the musical poster on the front
Pieter: ah. well. now you do.
Carmon: sounds like several of us have the same one...so, how do you all like the book so far?
Kate Nickelby: I was surprised how much I got into the story. I was expecting pages and pages of French agriculture
Tim: a bit wordy at times
Tim: very well written
Kate Nickelby: I like all the description
6:10 PM
Jamie: I thought Hugo was an excellent writer!
Carmon: he reminds me of a French Dickens...I wonder if they ever met
Jamie: I found all of it interesting, even the tangents.
Pieter: he's long-winded.
Jamie: oh, he's much better than Dickens
Tim: yes!
Kate Nickelby: He is not!
Tim: finally someone who agrees with me!
Tim: yes he is!
Pieter: he is TOO. he wrote too much. he could have cut out over half of what he wrote and still kept the basic story intact.
Carmon: perhaps his characters seem more realistic than Dickens which sometimes seem like caricatures
Tim: totally!
Carmon: maybe it should be a comic book, Pieter
Tim: not half
Kate Nickelby: I will agree with that, I suppose
Tim: but a good two-hundered pages or so
Pieter: I agree, Mom. with pictures?
Tim: i don't think Myriel need that much introduction
Carmon: i bought a hardcover edition of Les Mis today with illustrations by Lynd Ward
Tim: awesome
Kate Nickelby: Are they any good?
Carmon: Myriel was one of my favorite characters, although he was almost too good...Lynd Ward is a wonderful artist, he did many children's books
Tim: he's a great character, one of the best from the first part, i just think the introduction was too long
Kate Nickelby: I thought Myriel (or Bienvenu) was kind of unbelievable. Talk about caricatures.
Pieter: was Myriel the Bishop? I have trouble keeping the names straight.
Tim: yes
Pieter: err...Bienvenu. the Bishop. he was one of my favorites.
Carmon: So, tell me your favorite characters, and why? Yes, the Bishop of Digne
Carmon: Why did you like him Pieter?
Tim: Javert is really interesting in my opinion
Carmon: Do you like Javert?
Carmon: Maybe he reminds you of Pieter
Tim: haha
Tim: i like him the way one likes darth vader
Tim: interesting
Tim: not LIKABLE
Carmon: What do you find interesting about him?
Pieter: mmm...the Bishop...I'm thinking...why I like him...
Kate Nickelby: Javert is a Popish fanatic, isn't he?
Carmon: He is a fanatic about any kind of "law"
Tim: i find his total lack of mercy kind of interesting
Pieter: just the Bishop's philosophy of life. of course, his politics were a bit messed up...socialistic...but I did like his P.O.F.
Tim: the scene with him and Valjean and Fantine was powerful
6:15 PM
Kate Nickelby: Wait a min. are we on Javert or Bishop
Carmon: ok, let's stick with Javert for a minute...the first one where he wasn't going to let her go?
Tim: i'm on Javert
Tim: yes
Pieter: *I'm* talking about the Bishop. I don't know who the rest of you are talking about. you guys got off on a tangent.
Tim: the contrast between Javert and Valjean in that scene was cool
Carmon: i thought so, too, i was actually getting emotional about it while reading
Tim: yeah
Kate Nickelby: And I found it interesting that it USED to be Valjean who was the hardened one
Carmon: i loved how javert had to back down, but you could feel his hatred
Tim: Fantine has to be the saddest character in literature
Tim: you both are right on
Carmon: as a mother, i really sympathised with her
Jamie: I don't recall thinking of Javert as actually HATING...
Carmon: yet her suffering changed her from a frivolous person to a righteous one in the end
Kate Nickelby: He didn't really hate Valjean...he hated more the idea of evil
Tim: still sad
Pieter: I echo Mom. I really sympathized with fantine...as, umm...well, not a mother.
Jamie: *grin*
Carmon: i think you are right about valjean, he had a twisted view of morality and justice
Tim: the Thenardiers absolutely made me want to puke
Kate Nickelby: Her suffering though, wasn't it self-inflicted. I mean, giving away her daughter wasn't wise, was it?
Tim: i don't think it was wise
Tim: she wasn't in a great position though
Jamie: you can't BLAME her, can you?
Jamie: otherwise they would have both starved
Carmon: yes, but her choices were limited, and she saw it as God giving her an opportunity for her daughter's good
Jamie: although...perhaps for her, starving would have been preferable...
Kate Nickelby: So was she justified in becoming a prostitute?
Carmon: sometimes we have to make quick decisions and it's not easy
Jamie: um...I'd say noo...but she did it through love for Cosette...
Tim: not in becoming a prostitute
Tim: true
Tim: but still...
Jamie: almost an excusable fault
Carmon: no, she should have gone to the church, i think, i don't know if that would have been an option
Pieter: is sinning excusable in order to prevent starvation?
Jamie: no
Jamie: but it's understandable
Pieter: yes, if a man steals to feed his children, he is not sinning to the same extent...but he is still sinning.
Kate Nickelby: I say she should have realized by now that something is wrong with the Thernardiers and have gone and investigated it.
Carmon: part of the point of the story is that during this confusing time, there were many injustices done to people who were poor and lower middle class
Tim: she couldn't afford to
Jamie: she wasn't the brightest
6:20 PM
Carmon: travel was hard and she had very little
Jamie: or, rather...she was very naive
Kate Nickelby: Couldn't she have asked M. Madeleine to intervene?
Carmon: she also trusted...one of her faults was her naivite
Tim: she did
Tim: once she knew he was trustworthy
Kate Nickelby: Naivite was her big problem
Carmon: she believe M. Madeleine was the cause of her suffering and losing her job
Kate Nickelby: But I'm talking about before that.
Jamie: she impressed me as very much of a child throughout
Kate Nickelby: When the demands for money were coming in more frequently
Tim: she wasn't very bright
Carmon: He made a big deal of his workers being "moral" and she thought she would lose her job
Kate Nickelby: Ohhhhh
Carmon: Can anyone think of a character from the Bible or literature to which Fantine compares?
Kate Nickelby: So the big question is, is it alright to sin (Valjean and Fantine) when there doesn't seem to be any other way?
Pieter: the answer is no, Kate.
Carmon: I think that Hugo might say yes, or that some people have no choice...
Kate Nickelby: That's what I mean. They should have trusted God no matter what.
Jamie: well...didn't you say, Mrs. Friedrich, in a different conversation, that sometimes sin isn't sin when it's for a good reason?
Jamie: such as lying to save a life?
Kate Nickelby: Take Sister Simplice
Pieter: remember what the OT says about a man who steals bread to feed himself? he is semi-justified, but it doesn't cover the sin. it's still sin.
Carmon: But we know that God is not the god of the deist...He is inTimately involved in every aspect of our lives
Pieter: no, Jorge. I think Mom said that lying isn't a sin at all times. not that sin isn't sin at all times.
Carmon: I said that lying was not always sin
Carmon: such as hiding jews in WWII
Kate Nickelby: So is stealing always sin?
Tim: no
Carmon: speaking of stealing bread...what would be a biblical punishment for Jean Valjean
Carmon: yes, i think it is, but the penalty differs according to circumstance
Jamie: for him to pay back...7 times?
Jamie: and...I forget
6:25 PM
Pieter: err...is scrounging in war? stealing from the enemy? is that sin?
Kate Nickelby: How could he do restitution when he was starving?
Kate Nickelby: What about whipping?
Carmon: he could have been given work by the state, rather than prison, to repay
Carmon: biblical law does not call for whipping for stealing
Carmon: nor cutting off a hand
Carmon: such as islam calls for
Benjamin Friedrich has joined this chat.
Pieter: what are you doing here, Ben?
Carmon: did anyone do any research about this period of French history
Carmon: ?
Carmon: hi, ben
Pieter: you didn't read the book, did you? you can only be here if you read the book.
Tim: i didn't
Tim: didn't have the time
Tim: i was gone almost the entire time
Benjamin Friedrich: I'm just looking
Carmon: Jamie?
Jamie: oh, in FRENCH history?
Jamie: not in french history
Carmon: it's ok ben
Carmon: kate?
Kate Nickelby: One kind of gets the idea that he was doing work and he was mad about the prison sentence, which was way superfluous.
Kate Nickelby: Valjean, I mean.
Carmon: i'm not sure i understand, kate
Jamie: but I found out that General Jackson was fighting Seminoles in Florida right about then..5 years or so before he was made Pres.
Kate Nickelby: I mean that he WAS being employed by the state during his prison sentence. He speaks of earning 100 livres or something
Carmon: that is interesting...indians weren't being treated very well then
Pieter: oh. here we go with the P/C stuff. *scowls* let's give the Indians reparations.
Carmon: yes, but it wasn't much, and his first sentence was for several years
Tim: i think the US treatment of native americans is one of the worst things this country has ever done, but that's another issue
Carmon: ok, let's talk about french history a bit
Carmon: they had a revolution shortly after our war for independence
Kate Nickelby: You mean, Napoleon and the Hundred days? Or further back?
Carmon: it came because there was such a gap between the monarchy and upper classes...
6:30 PM
Carmon: but it was based on humanism which had a strong hold there
Carmon: it was also based on greed, or covetousness
Pieter: I don't think that was one of the worst things we've ever done, Tim. I think one of the worst things was going to war with Iraq.
Kate Nickelby: AUGG!
Tim: i'm not going there
Carmon: there were legiTimate grievances...we're talking about france, guys
Tim: yes
Tim: exactly
Kate Nickelby: I know. I'm just sitting here nodding at what you type.
Tim: debate Iraq on the curch message board, not here
Carmon: but the leaders were wanting to overthrow all conventions, throwing out the baby with the bath water
Carmon: so, there were horrible atrocities in the name of "democracy"
Carmon: in france
Pieter: there were NO legiTimate grievances against Iraq.
Tim: Pieter...
Kate Nickelby: Pieter, stop it!
Pieter: but the Indians were taking scalps off AMERICAN woman AND children.
Carmon: eventually, the revolution fell apart, the revolutionaries faced the guillotine
Tim: debate Iraq on the church message board, not here
Carmon: Pieter, knock it off
Carmon: so, it gave napolean an opportunity for a military takeover
Tim: if you want, we can have a long AIM chat debate about Iraq sometime but not right now, please
Kate Nickelby: Then didn't Louis 18 come along first, though?
Carmon: there was so much disorder, people wanted a dictator to restore sanity
Kate Nickelby: And Napoleon came along and snagged it all.
Kate Nickelby: Without the sanity
Pieter: a dictator like Saddam Hussein?
Tim: Pieter...
Carmon: yes, then louis took it back
Kate Nickelby: Aha!
Carmon: napolean had a short comeback, but then he lost and was banished to elba
Pieter: you mean the island of Elba.
Carmon: it is all very confusing, which is the point
Kate Nickelby: So did you just skip Waterloo?
Carmon: yes...i just wanted to show the instability in the country, and the back and forth governments
Jamie: at what point were they beheading the royalty, a la Madame Guillotine? was that later?
Kate Nickelby: that was in 1793
Carmon: that was in the late 1700s
Kate Nickelby: Napoleon came back around 1815
Carmon: the reign of terror
6:35 PM
Jamie: ah, ok
Carmon: there were lots of factions always fighting, some monarchists, some for napoleon
Kate Nickelby: Think, Guillotine first, Napoleon, Waterloo, Elba
Jamie: (my French history is hazy)
Carmon: mine too
Tim: so is mine, you're not alone
Tim: yours is better than mine
Carmon: but it helps to know a little for the story, to understand why the situation is so horrible for the lower classes
Carmon: hugo was a humanist with socialist tendencies
Pieter: umm...wasn't Joan of Arc living around that time?
Kate Nickelby: And the debate between Hugo and G---
Kate Nickelby: Very funny, Pieter.
Pieter: between Hugo? don't you mean between the Bishop and G--? that was one of my favorite bits.
Kate Nickelby: Yes, I did.
Tim: G--?
Jamie: yeah, mine too
Jamie: that's what they call him, Tim
Carmon: Which part was that?
Jamie: they don't give him a name
Tim: call who?
Jamie: he was a revolutionary...
Carmon: oh, yes
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 35
Jamie: they call him the "conventionist"
Carmon: tell me what change you think there was in the bishop after that?
Kate Nickelby: He basically says that each side had good reasons, and both were both right and wrong.
Pieter: actually...
Carmon: how did he see the bishop as being wrong?
Kate Nickelby: I don't know, was he less hasty to condemn?
Jamie: well...it says that he was even more inclined to...*reads*
Pieter: reading G--'s talk, I was semi-swayed towards the Revolutionary side. I still know it was wrong, but he made it seem...less wrong. more justified.
Kate Nickelby: He said they had a good reason to begin, but they went too far.
Carmon: yet the revolutionary died a pagan
Pieter: right, Kate.
Pieter: and yes, he did die a pagan.
Carmon: he rejected God...you can see that his philosophy was based on "human dignity"
Pieter: right, Mom.
Kate Nickelby: So, did he really realize how too far he went?
Kate Nickelby: No.
Jamie: for a moment there I thought he was converting..
Jamie: his "the me of infinity is God"
Kate Nickelby: That was rather vague.
Jamie: but, of course, belief that God exists does not cease to make one a pagan
Carmon: so, if you can imagine it, the bishop became more humble after that
6:40 PM
Kate Nickelby: EVEN!
Carmon: that's right, you have to worship the true God
Kate Nickelby: Does anyone know what Bienvenu means? There seemed to be some significance there.
Carmon: the book said that the bishop "made virtue accessible"...what do you think that means...i wondered that, too, Kate
Pieter: he made virtue seem achievable. he made the Law seem obeyable. maybe that's what he meant.
Kate Nickelby: He made people realize that it was possible to be "good"
Pieter: ditto on K.N.
Carmon: how did people see the other church leaders, other bishops?
Kate Nickelby: Well, the cure' at the end didn't use Valjean's money the way he wanted.
Pieter: they saw them as being greedy. caring for the position only because of the money they could make.
Kate Nickelby: It made it sound like he grudged using the money.
Pieter: no. he grudged using the money for himself, but not for others.
Carmon: i did like the examples of how the bishop was always serving people, even though he was too good to be real
Kate Nickelby: No, I mean the cure, not the bishop, Pieter.
Carmon: he was an example of how to be a real leader means being a servant of others
Jamie: he was amazingly unselfish...
Carmon: they grew to depend upon him...and jean valjean followed his example
Pieter: the Bishop was socialistic, though.
Kate Nickelby: He seemed to regard owning goods as sin somehow.
Jamie: did he say that?
Carmon: yes, there was a lot of socialism as salvation i noticed in the story
Carmon: i think for himself he felt that way, not necessarily for others
Pieter: right, Kate.
Kate Nickelby: Take M. Madeleine for example.
Jamie: I think his philosophy was that it wasn't WRONG...but that he'd rather see others have things then himself
6:45 PM
Carmon: you mean hugo?
Pieter: no, I don't think he said that in so many words, Jorge. it was all implied.
Pieter: it seemed more to me that he thought it was WRONG...
Jamie: (pick a name and stick with it, Pieter)
Carmon: in the catholic church, asceticism is admired, i believe, at least personally, not in the institution
Pieter: ok. that explains it, Mom.
Pieter: (I have picked a name, Jorge. it's "Pieter.")
Carmon: the bishop was also wise...i liked this passage:
Carmon: just as he knew the time for silence, he also knew the time for speech...
Kate Nickelby: Reference to Ecclesiastes there
Carmon: oh, admirable colsoler! He did not seek to drown grief in oblivion, but to exalt and dignify it through hope
Carmon: consoler
Carmon: again, jean valjean seemed to emulate this, even though he didn't spend much time with the bishop, the bishop was his hero
Kate Nickelby: What did you think when Valjean robbed Petit Gervais?
Tim: i was depressed
Pieter: me too.
Jamie: yes, I thought it was interesting to follow Valjean's actions afterwards...assuming that he was the Bishop's pupil and an extension of the Bishop's philosophy
Kate Nickelby: I was too, but it was weird that he seemed unconscious of what he did until the Savoyard left
Carmon: I was appalled, but i really liked the passages about his conversion
Tim: it really bit him later too
Jamie: um...I was surprised...and confused. I thought at first that it was by accident
Kate Nickelby: I did too
Carmon: it was almost that he couldn't help himself, he had to rob the little boy
Kate Nickelby: I was moved about how he tried to atone for it afterwards as M. Madeleine
Tim: yeah
Carmon: but then when he was saved, it said that he tried to resist that but couldn't
Jamie: I mean, backsliding already? rather like the servant in the bible...choking his fellow slave for his money after being forgiven a great debt
Carmon: i think it was meant to be a stark contrast between his old self and his new self
Carmon: i thought of that example, too
Kate Nickelby: It was almost like the old man and new man were there together.
Jamie: sort of a look back at what he was?
Tim: yo tambien
Kate Nickelby: It even says that his new man was horrified at what the other had done.
Jamie: and a final putting away of that old man, then...
6:50 PM
Carmon: i think it was more a total change, a totally new person
Carmon: radical
Carmon: can you think of any other interesting contrasts in the story?
Kate Nickelby: Because even when he finally turned himself in, it was as the new man.
Tim: Valjean and Javert
Carmon: yes, and his struggle was so interesting
Tim: THERE'S a contrast
Kate Nickelby: He feared returning and being sucked into evil again.
Kate Nickelby: I
Carmon: ok, Tim, tell us how they contrast
Jamie: that was another of my favorite passages...
Kate Nickelby: Valjean and Javert?
Carmon: yes, then we can talk about the struggle
Carmon: between Jean and God or his conscience
Tim: the contrast?
Carmon: yes
Tim: Javert is a classic pharisee
Tim: letter of hte law
Tim: no mercy
Carmon: right
Tim: Valjean was the polar opposite
Carmon: can it be possible to have too much mercy?
Tim: yes
Kate Nickelby: Yes.
Carmon: when?
Tim: there is a place for justice as well
Carmon: ok, so there needs to be balance?
Kate Nickelby: So should Javert have let hime go?
Tim: correct
Jamie: well, sometimes justice IS mercy...
Kate Nickelby: Should the bishop for that matter, have let him go?
Tim: he should have been more lenient with Fantine
Carmon: when man's law contradicts God's law, are we obligated to obey it?
Kate Nickelby: You mean, with Jean's harsh punishment?
Carmon: with the bishop, whom did Jean sin against?
Kate Nickelby: Against the bishop.
Carmon: yes, if the punishment is harsher than God's law dictates, what then?
Carmon: anybody?
Kate Nickelby: Then it is wrong, but aren't we supposed to "render to Caesar"? I
Kate Nickelby: 'm just throwing that out
Carmon: do we have to render more than Caesar is entitled to?
6:55 PM
Carmon: what if Caesar says to send your children to godless government schools?
Kate Nickelby: Shouldn't we suffer with the unjust laws and try to change them gradually?
Tim: not always
Tim: look at china
Pieter: what is Caesar's is the question to ask.
Jamie: well, we aren't supposed to rebel against the government unless it demands disobedience to God, right?
Pieter: is my money Caesar's? no. are my children? no. is my property? no.
Carmon: right...they aren't supposed to meet outside state sanctioned churches in china
Tim: exactly
Jamie: yes, but I wouldn't start a revolution just to get out of paying taxes, Pieter
Tim: chinese police like to quote Romans where it says to obey the governing authorities
Jamie: maybe to avoid having my children indoctrinated.
Pieter: neither would I, Jorge. but that doesn't make my money Caesar's.
Carmon: god commands us to teach them God's law all day long
Carmon: but we are not to be lawbreakers, either
Tim: i don't think sending them to a godless school would NECESSARILY be a bad idea
Pieter: you mean "God," Mom.
Pieter: why would that not be a bad idea, necessarily, Tim?
Carmon: yes Pieter, i'm typing fast
Tim: because light is more necessary in a dark place
Tim: it depends on certain circumstances
Kate Nickelby: So about the punishment, since it doesn't require us to break God's law, it should be let alone for now?
Carmon: yes, but i think we should think about this as we read further in the book
Kate Nickelby: Here, here.
Tim: agreed
Jamie: well, maybe not...but one could try to change it through the correct channels...
Pieter: ok.
Carmon: Tell me about the changes in Jean
Jamie: sure
Carmon: I was impressed with how blessed he became as he became righteous
Tim: yeah
Tim: not always the case
Pieter: Jean changed. once he was a little boy. then he grew up. and he got a job. and he got married. but first, he rented an apartment.
Kate Nickelby: That was interesting, and an entrepreuner too.
Kate Nickelby: When did he get married?
Jamie: rented an apartment..??
Tim: Pieter, can't you be serious?
Carmon: what story are you reading Pieter?
Jamie: Pieter, close your comic book
Tim: not the one about Jean VALJEAN!
Carmon: also, he cared about his community
7:00 PM
Pieter: *snap* ok, Jorge, I closed it.
Kate Nickelby: He was even merciful to Javert, when he asked to be dismissed.
Carmon: Here's a passage about jean's view of law:
Carmon: everybody voluntarily chose him as judge...
Pieter: I'm talking about Levi Jeans. he was one of the main characters in Les Miserables.
Carmon: he seemed to have learned the book of natural law by heart
Carmon: so he did have a respect for law
Jamie: although he did break his parole...
Kate Nickelby: Absolutely. Within reason.
Tim: Pieter, you aren't helping
Carmon: i think that Tim's comparison of javert to a pharisee was apt
Jamie: that didn't seem to bother him
Pieter: I'm not trying to help, Tim.
Carmon: and the contrast with jean's view of law is really striking
Tim: oy with the poodles already
Tim: indeed
Carmon: i want you guys to see that the situation in france...
Carmon: with so many strict laws, did not lead to a lawful society
Kate Nickelby: Bingo!
Carmon: it is a good thing to think about...
Jamie: was it the strict laws...
Carmon: because we have a situation in our own land where more and more detailed and intrusive laws are being made all the time
Jamie: or the ignorance of the people that led to the lawlessness?
Jamie: or some of both?
Kate Nickelby: So if we break a stupid law, do we get to break our parole?
Carmon: i don't think that ignorance necessarily leads to lawbreaking
Jamie: perhaps it was the strict laws that kept them poor...and so they had to break the law to live?
Carmon: it was a vicious circle...i don't know which came first
Carmon: but a society with a multitude of laws is not going to be a just society
Kate Nickelby: And if only Jean had been Javert, he would have tried to effect a change
7:05 PM
Carmon: just because it has all those laws
Jamie: ?
Kate Nickelby: I thought she was done
Carmon: Kate, elaborate
Carmon: kate
Kate Nickelby: What I mean is, that Jean would have known how all those laws were empty in the end
Carmon: today, in carmel, we found out that there is a law that you can't wear high heels
Kate Nickelby: And he would have tried to change them
Kate Nickelby: Instead of being like Javert
Pieter: are you telling the truth, Mom?
Carmon: do you mean if there roles are reversed?
Kate Nickelby: And obeying them blindly with a perverted view of justice
Carmon: yes, Pieter, because of the uneven pavement, they made the law
Pieter: ok.
Carmon: that's right, kate...
Kate Nickelby: Do I get a prize?
Carmon: that's something to consider...a law may seem good, if good men are in power
Tim: true
Tim: dangerous
Carmon: but if bad men are in power, they can pervert the law...it will not be tempered with mercy
Pieter: Like Bush
Carmon: so we need to be careful about what power we allow the ruling magistrate to have
Carmon: because he may not always be a good guy
Tim: Pieter...
Pieter: yes, Tim?
Carmon: it takes wisdom to be a just ruler
Pieter: what's up?
Tim: give me a minute, i want to choose my words wisely
Carmon: enough Pieter
Carmon: and time
Carmon: Tim
Tim: yes?
Carmon: no fighting guys
Pieter: it's true. it's like Bush. no laws for rulers in good times makes for bad times when you have bad rulers.
Carmon: when jean valjean had his struggle with his conscience...
Jamie: we agree about the principle, Pieter
Tim: yes
Kate Nickelby: Which struggle?
Carmon: it reminded me of Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane
Tim: about Champmatheiu?
Carmon: when he didn't know if he would stop the trial of the false Jean Valjean
Carmon: yes
7:10 PM
Kate Nickelby: Oh, they even make a reference to that, don't they?
Carmon: Then his journey to Arras...was like Christian in Pilgrim's Progress
Carmon: i think so, kate
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 236.
Carmon: there were gardens mentioned several times...
Kate Nickelby: Especially in his dream
Carmon: can you guys tell me some of the gardens?
Jamie: Pieter can
Jamie: he was telling me all about them
Carmon: really?
Jamie: yes
Kate Nickelby: Gardens are a lot in that flighty chapter with Favourite and Fantine and the rest
Jamie: well? Pieter?
Tim: i couldn't stand that chapter
Kate Nickelby: He's getting some toast with peanut butter
Pieter: oh. right. let me grab the passage.
Jamie: I thought it was interesting!
Carmon: yes?
Carmon: the flighty chapter...
Kate Nickelby: It made me sick, how shallow the girls were.
Tim: and Pieter thinks Bush is a good comparison with bad leadership
Tim: people disagree
Carmon: tholomyes was kind of like the snake, don't you think?
Jamie: It gave the background for Fantine's indiscretion....and told something about her life before
Tim: it was necessary
Jamie: I didn't know what to think of tholomyes
Tim: just not my favorite part of the book
Pieter: b"But then, he claimed no knowledge of botany, knew nothing of strains and genera and took no sides in the disputes between learned botanists. He did not study plants, he merely loved flowers.
Kate Nickelby: I was disgusted with him
Jamie: he didn't seem PURPOSELY bad...
Kate Nickelby: He just was
Jamie: but he clearly was extremely callous
Kate Nickelby: Rather
Carmon: he was inherently bad and selfish
Pieter: He had great respect for men of learning but even more respect for the ignorant, and without forfeiting either loyalty he watered his beds every summer evening with a green watering-can."
Pieter: that was one of my favorite passages.
Kate Nickelby: I thought it was horrible how Favourite and the other, just went along with these jerks
Carmon: who was that...the bishop?
Carmon: Pieter?
Tim: yo
Jamie: I think it was...wasn't it?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon: the reason i want you to notice the gardens...
Carmon: is because gardens are a very biblical theme
Pieter: yeah, that was the Bishop.
Pieter: I like it because it applies to me.
7:15 PM
Carmon: the ignorant part?
Kate Nickelby: What is the significance of Jean's dream?
Jamie: (does Pieter have a green watering can?)
Pieter: I love stuff...but I really don't care about the whys and hows unless they're necessary. I just love things.
Pieter: shut up, Jorge. no, Mom.
Carmon: what page is it on, kate?
Kate Nickelby: Looking..
Carmon: 236
Kate Nickelby: Thanks
Jamie: it didn't seem to HAVE a significance...
Kate Nickelby: It must
Jamie: except to show what a disturbed state he was in
Carmon: i'm not sure....perhaps wanting rest...perhaps the fact that if he chose to do wrong, he would not be able to be truly alive...
Carmon: he would be more alive and free in prison if he did what was right
Jamie: certainly that part is true
Kate Nickelby: He knew it too.
Jamie: although I'm not sure that the dream signifies that...
Carmon: gardens in the bible are an example of rest...
Kate Nickelby: I think he dreamed that he had died. Note the earth-colored faces.
Carmon: also a reminder of where we face sin and have to make a choice
Carmon: such as adam and eve made, and Christ before His crucifixion
Kate Nickelby: Mary thought that Christ was the gardener
Carmon: perhaps it signified spiritual death if he chose to save himself
Carmon: yes, his tomb was in a garden
7:20 PM
Carmon: the bishop loved his garden...it's where he went to think
Carmon: and pray
Carmon: do you think there was a contrast in the book between city and country?
Kate Nickelby: Not really.
Kate Nickelby: Nobody has mentioned Myriel's sister Baptistine. What did you think of her and the maid Magloire?
Carmon: what did you think of them?
Carmon: were they important to the story?
Kate Nickelby: I liked Baptisitine
Carmon: yes?
Carmon: how would you describe her?
Kate Nickelby: I thought..
Kate Nickelby: She was very
Kate Nickelby: giving of herself
Kate Nickelby: to her brother
Carmon: self-sacrificing and deferential
Kate Nickelby: I felt sorry for her being frightened at night, though she shouldn't have been.
Carmon: did she nag him for giving his money to the poor and making them live frugally
Kate Nickelby: Never.
Carmon: my favorite passage has to do with her...
Jamie: I think...she loved her brother...and that was enough for her
Carmon: it's kind of long, but i want you guys to read it and talk about it:
Carmon: Message is too long or too complex
Tim: brb
Kate Nickelby: What page?
Carmon: ack
Carmon: just a minute
Carmon: Message is too long or too complex
Carmon: ok pp. 166-167
7:25 PM
Carmon: where it describes the bishop's blindness and how she cared for him
Carmon: if you have it, look it up
Kate Nickelby: "You feel an approaching warmth; she is there."
Kate Nickelby: "You see nothing, but you feel yourself adored."
Jamie: oh, right
Jamie: I remember that
Jamie: now if I can just FIND it...
Carmon: it talks about the joy of having someone love you in spite of your infirmity
Tim: what book is it in?
Kate Nickelby: Its very moving
Carmon: and that being blind was a blessing because it meant he had her loving and serving him just because
Carmon: it's in the first book...fantine, about the part where the bishop died
Kate Nickelby: I love this:
Carmon: he had become blind and totally dependent
Kate Nickelby: "The supreme happiness in life is the conviction that we are loved..."
Carmon: Say rather, loved in spite of ourselves...
Kate Nickelby: And we are blind and totally dependent on Christ who loves us.
Kate Nickelby: Isn't that beautiful?
Tim: very
Carmon: It also says, "light is not lost where love enters."
Carmon: There is a lot about how suffering can be a blessing
Jamie: the "loved in spite of ourselves" is my favorite part of that whole passage
Carmon: How would Jean Valjean be different if he had not suffered...i like that too, Jamie
Carmon: ?
Tim: Jamie?
Tim: please pick one name
Carmon: What if he hadn't stolen the bread?
Carmon: Who would he be?
Tim: hmmm, interesting question
Carmon: i know
Kate Nickelby: He would never have ministered to all those people
7:30 PM
Kate Nickelby: He would never have been able to help Fantine
Carmon: Do you think he should have bothered? Were they grateful?
Jamie: he would never have had as rich a nature....
Tim: still doesn't excuse his crime, like Joseph's brothers
Pieter: Mom, that's Jorge.
Jamie: no matter if they were grateful or not...it helped HIM
Carmon: Answer my question, Pieter
Carmon: Right, Jamie...
Kate Nickelby: Yes, he should have bothered. He did what was right and noble.
Carmon: We don't obey God and do good because of what the result will be
Carmon: We do it because it's right and because we must obey God, no matter the result
Carmon: His suffering was also the means to his salvation
Carmon: The same with Fantine
Kate Nickelby: Though she died rather in the midst of them.
Carmon: Does suffering always produce this result?
Tim: no
Kate Nickelby: It depends why you're suffering.
Carmon: Yes, but don't you think she was saved?
Benjamin Friedrich has left this chat.
Jamie: doesn't it depend on your response to suffering?
Tim: i'm not sure about that
Carmon: Jean Valjean was suffering by his own fault, in some ways
Kate Nickelby: Saved from what?
Carmon: Had salvation
Kate Nickelby: And he knew that and it bothered him deeply.
Kate Nickelby: I hope so.
Carmon: Sometimes, though, we suffer without knowing why
Carmon: But we must still have a right response to it...not anger and bitterness
Carmon: About Fantine it says:
Kate Nickelby: Page please!
Carmon: "The hell you have just left is the first step toward heaven. You had to begin there."
Carmon: page 201
Jamie: *sigh* we should all have the same version...
Tim: we don't
Tim:
Carmon: sorry
Carmon: i would like to hear about others' favorite passages
7:35 PM
Kate Nickelby: Mine is:
Tim: i enjoyed the passage with Valjean showing up and saving Champmatheiu
Tim: they were all so sure
Carmon: That was quite dramatic
Jamie: I think we hit both of mine already...the discussion with G-- and Jean's fight with himself
Kate Nickelby: "Without being aware of it, the mayor of Montreuil-wur-mer had a certain celebrity"
Carmon: That passage, Tim, reminded me that facts can be twisted
Kate Nickelby: The contrast between him being rejected with his yellow paper
Carmon: and that both sides need to be heard
Tim: yeah
Kate Nickelby: And the reception his note as mayor received.
Tim: Champmatheiu was pretty helpless
Kate Nickelby: I'll say.
Carmon: that was really a stark contrast, and champmatheiu was like he once was
Kate Nickelby: And who he did not want to go back to being
Carmon: he feared going back, but do you think he would become like that again?
Kate Nickelby: No.
Kate Nickelby: He changed too fundamentally.
Tim: i agree with Kate
Kate Nickelby: He realized that he was reconciled to God and that was what mattered.
Carmon: did you notice how the judge later threw the book at him because he didn't agree with his politics?
Kate Nickelby: Where?
Carmon: when he returned to the village and javert came to arrest him...
Carmon: it tells about what happened in the courtroom after he left, how the judge was a monarchist
Kate Nickelby: I'm not finding it
Carmon: and he didn't like that Valjean referred to Napoleon as emperor
Kate Nickelby: Found!
7:40 PM
Kate Nickelby: That hypocrite! "Justice must take its course indeed"!
Carmon: there is a big contrast between people who are shallow and people with layers in this book
Kate Nickelby: Does Javert have layers?
Carmon: the thenardiers are shallow
Kate Nickelby: Favourite is shallow
Carmon: i don't know yet, i think he will
Carmon: yes
Tim: Javert definitely has layers
Carmon: you've read father than us
Jamie: Javert is one of the most interesting characters
Tim: true
Tim:
Tim: agreed there
Kate Nickelby: Not fair, Mr. Boat!
Tim: oy
Tim: hey, i spent about fifteen hours just on the planes
Carmon: i like the references to the kinds of books different people read
Kate Nickelby: Ahem! Did Pieter drop off the face of the earth?
Pieter: no, I'm here.
Carmon: it mentioned that madame thenardier liked to read
Tim: we told him to stop making Iraq references, he has nothing to say
Carmon: but she read trashy novels
Jamie: *wince*
Kate Nickelby: Can Fantine read? I'
Pieter: I stopped talking about Iraq.
Jamie: *hides trashy novel she was just reading*
Carmon: there were a lot of them in that time...romances, although today they would probably be considered classics
Kate Nickelby: ve forgotten.
Tim: you also stopped talking
Tim: just a little joke
Jamie: Fantine could read a little
Pieter: so...I have stuff to say...but I have said some of it already. like, I gave my favorite characters...and my favorite passage.
Jamie: but she couldn't write
Carmon: no, she couldn't, and it was one of her dowbnfalls
Carmon: downfalls
Carmon: could she?
Kate Nickelby: Because of the Thernadiers?
Jamie: Pieter, take the underline off...it's distracting
Kate Nickelby: I'll say
Carmon: because of the busybodies
Kate Nickelby: Oh.
Carmon: they found out about her daughter that way, because she needed help writing her letters
Pieter: is that better, Jorge?
Carmon: no, Pieter, not better
Pieter: oh. ok. sorry.
Jamie: ouch
Jamie: where are my shades?
Pieter: anyways, where were we?
Kate Nickelby: How much is a livre?
Kate Nickelby: Does anyone know?
Tim: i was wondering that
Jamie: er...
Carmon: it was awful how the townspeople turned on valjean, too
Jamie: a livre..is...a livre *beams*
Tim: i think twenty sous makes one franc
Kate Nickelby: I looked it up and all it said was an old French silver coin.
Pieter: a livre is...french money. that's all I know.
Carmon: i'm sure they had horrendous inflation
Tim: yep
7:45 PM
Carmon: anyone want to do a bit of research for next time?
Jamie: yes, I wasn't surprised...but disgusted with human behavior...quick to jump on scandal and forget past goodness
Kate Nickelby: So Petit Gervais lost two francs?
Jamie: I can try to look it up
Kate Nickelby: Bless you, my child!
Pieter: ok. do that, Jorge.
Tim: i suppose
Carmon: ok, you can tell us next time
Kate Nickelby: This has been most enlightening
Carmon: does anyone have any difficult passages to discuss?
Jamie: not difficult....
Tim: nope
Carmon: How about this one:
Jamie: some of his references I didn't understand...but that's because I don't know my french history
Kate Nickelby: What page?
Carmon: Jean Valjean was not, as we have seen, born evil...page 89
Tim: that ain't true
Carmon: ok?
Jamie: born evil...?
Jamie: where is that?
Pieter: what do you mean..."born evil"?
Pieter: or what does Hugo mean?
Carmon: is there anything wrong with that sentence?
Tim: YES!
Tim: we are ALL born evil
Carmon: he is saying that it was not Valjean's fault the way he was acting
Carmon: So Valjean had a conversion in the story...
Carmon: do you think Hugo believed that some people didn't need a conversion from their sin...that they could be born good?
Tim: don't know
Tim: didn't think about it
Kate Nickelby: I think he is pointing out that when Jean turned his back on God, he turned away from God's image in him and became really awful.
Carmon: Or that people are born good and then inevitably circumstances make them evil and they need salvation?
Carmon: From what I have read of Hugo...
Carmon: his personal life was a mess...he was an adulterer
7:50 PM
Carmon: I have noticed that many times, authors try to atone for their sinful lives through stories of redemption that they write
Kate Nickelby: His basic presupposition here is that Jean was good and then being in prison made him evil.
Kate Nickelby: Bad presupposition.
Carmon: Right...don't you think that many social reformers today have that view
Carmon: ?
Kate Nickelby: Many of the questions he asks in that section, have already been answered back at The Fall.
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 90
Jamie: I don't know...wasn't it more that Jean had the potential for both and then became bad? because he had, as yet, it seemed...a rather undeveloped nature
Carmon: They try to change the symptoms rather than the root cause
Jamie: he hadn't seemed to have DONE anything either way
Jamie: I mean, that that is what Hugo thought...
Kate Nickelby: He seems to be regarding Jean as Adam.
Carmon: Right, but is sin something we do or something we have
Kate Nickelby: And struggling with free will, which Jean didn't have
Carmon: Right
Kate Nickelby: So the question is moot
Kate Nickelby: Isn't it?
Kate Nickelby: I mean the questions he is asking
Carmon: Just trying to get you to consider how this view is humanistic...
Kate Nickelby: Thank you
Carmon: Compared to the view of some of the founders that man is basically evil and needs to have checks and limitations put on him
Carmon: The views in France and America (among some, anyway) were quite different
Carmon: If we see man as a product of his environment, we have a false presupposition
Carmon: and that leads to bad policies
Carmon: Do any of you have any vocabulary words you looked up?
Kate Nickelby: Which shows that beliefs DO affect how we live
Carmon: yes
Jamie: yes
Carmon: go for it
Kate Nickelby: "Grisette" means a French working girl
Jamie: I looked up "canaille"...
Carmon: ok
Jamie: because the French rulers, etc. said that the French people made
Jamie: "good canaille"
Jamie: it basically means riff-raff...rabble
Kate Nickelby: In other words, an insult?
Jamie: they weren't a threat, they meant...
Carmon: i think that some of the people in Monterey make good canaille, too
Jamie: something like that...
Jamie: lol
Carmon: anyone else?
7:55 PM
Carmon: i looked up "caryatid"...
Carmon: a draped female figure supporting an entablature
Carmon: arborescence...
Carmon: resembling a tree in properties, growth, structure or appearance
Carmon: euphony
Jamie: immolate: to destroy...I should have known that before...but I forgot it
Carmon: pleasing or sweet sound--especially the acoustic effect produced by words so formed or combined as to please the ear
Jamie: ok, from whence comes the word "arbor" interesting!
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: He speaks!
Tim: i didn't look any words up
Carmon: you shall be arborescent...Psalm 1
Tim: i wasn't in my home state
Tim:
Carmon: try to look some up next time...it's interesting
Carmon: ok...you guys tired out?
Tim: a bit
Tim: i'm not totally dying though
Jamie: bioe
Jamie: *grin*
Jamie: sorry, wrong keys...
Jamie: no
Carmon: well, you may be excused. I'M tired out.
Part Two
Carmon: hello ladies...oh, and Pieter
Kate Nickelby: Ola, senior and senioritas
Pieter: hey, peeps.
Carmon: am i the senior?
Kate Nickelby: No, Pieter is
Jamie: *wince*
Jamie: Pieter, MUST you?
Kate Nickelby: Yes, he must...sigh...
Jamie: that's so...common...so...vulgar...so...girly. yech
Carmon: rules: no fighting
Carmon: and no fighting
Jamie: I WAS a senior last year
Pieter: what? what did I say? I said "hey." that's normal. that's proper. that's appropriate for the situation...
Kate Nickelby: You too?
Carmon: congratulations...I'm one all the time
Carmon: ok...let's get started...did you all finish?
Pieter: no, I really don't want to cut this short...
Kate Nickelby: Yes...two days ago!
Jamie: yes, about *checks watch* half an hour ago
Pieter: yep. I finished 2 hours ago.
Jamie: *blush*
Pieter: *sneers at Jamie*
Jamie: but I finished! I'm proud of myself
Carmon: wow...i finished this afternoon, too
Jamie: *smiles kindly at Pieter*
Carmon: did you find this section harder to read than the last one?
Kate Nickelby: A touch
Jamie: yes...it had more irrelevant material to go through
Kate Nickelby: Mostly the Waterloo info.
Kate Nickelby: A little TMI
Jamie: I LIKED it...but it was long
Jamie: I liked Waterloo better than the Convent material
7:05 PM
Kate Nickelby: I liked all the extra stuff about the convent
Pieter: the Waterloo bit was interesting...
Pieter: and, well...I skipped a lot of the convent stuff.
Kate Nickelby: Especially about Napoleon
Carmon: ok...i want to hear what you liked about waterloo first
Kate Nickelby: I liked how Hugo pointed out God's sovreignty
Carmon: the parts of the book i mean
Pieter: umm...I knew nothing about it to start with, and now I at least know generally why N. lost the battle.
Carmon: how was God sovereign
Carmon: ?
Jamie: I was intrigued at Hugo's grasp of the battle...he described it as if he was there himself...
Kate Nickelby: He ordained the rain
Kate Nickelby: And the snarl of communications
Jamie: yes, that WAS interesting...
Kate Nickelby: The 'A' diagram was interesting
Jamie: chalking that up to divine will and not to just chance and cooincidence
Pieter: what diagram?
Pieter: you mean the description? or did your book have a diagram?
Carmon: Do you think that Waterloo was something which the French remembered for a long time?
Jamie: it must have been!
Kate Nickelby: Description
Pieter: ok.
Kate Nickelby: Sort of like our Gettysburg
Carmon: do you have any idea how small France is? Size-wise?
Kate Nickelby: Studied and thought through
Pieter: it's small.
Kate Nickelby: What is the square mileage
Kate Nickelby: ?
Carmon: Think about how much history is in every nook and cranny...lots of bloodshed
Jamie: *guessing* maybe the size of...one of our states?
Carmon: We're getting an atlas
Kate Nickelby: It IS rather bloody
Kate Nickelby: the history, that is
Pieter: yeah. it's the size of one our states...I can't remember if the state was Rhode Island or Alaska, though.
Carmon: Can you think of another time the weather affected a major European battle...giving the victory to the English?
Kate Nickelby: The Spanish Armada
Carmon: Alaska??
Jamie: oh...duh
Jamie: I have an atlas right here...
Jamie: I coulda looked...I CAN look
Kate Nickelby: Also the Nazi attack on Russia
Carmon: Yes! The ships couldn't get close to the English coast because of a "freak" violent storm
Jamie: roughly the size of Texas
Carmon: Thanks Jamie
Kate Nickelby: Also Napoleon's attack on Russia
Carmon: Yes...amazing the similarities between Napoleon and Hitler in Russia
Carmon: You'd think Hitler would remember his history
7:10 PM
Carmon: do you think hugo saw napoleon as a hero?
Kate Nickelby: No way
Jamie: well...
Kate Nickelby: I think he was disgusted by his arrogance and careless flinging away of lives
Pieter: mmm...
Jamie: he saw him as a great man...a genius...but that doesn't mean he thought he was a hero
Kate Nickelby: see pg. 324
Pieter: I don't think he saw him as a hero so much...
Kate Nickelby: He seems to see both sides alot in this book
Pieter: but Hugo didn't really seem to back either side when recounting the battle.
Kate Nickelby: He was moved by the suffering on both sides, I think
Carmon: Doesn't it seem like he admired some things from both sides, but that he thought it unfortunate that France lost?
Pieter: yes.
Kate Nickelby: Being a Frenchman, it does him credit I suppose...
Carmon: There is a lot of tension in this book...from seeing two sides to many things
Jamie: I don't think he thought it was unfortunate that France LOST...did he?
Pieter: I don't think it was clear what he thought about it, Jamie.
Jamie: it seemed like he thought it HAD to happen...that Napoleon was..er...getting too big for his britches...
Carmon: I think he was patriotic, but he realized that N's megalomania was wrong
Pieter: yeah...or getting too old.
Kate Nickelby: What does "Merde!" mean, incidentaly
Kate Nickelby: Double L, sorry
Carmon: look it up, Pieter
Carmon: from the book:
Kate Nickelby: pg. 341
Carmon: "He seemed to say to fate, 'You would not dare!"
Carmon: "He annoyed God"
Jamie: it isn't French...or IS it? it's not in my French dic.
Carmon: on babelfish
Kate Nickelby: What page, please?
Carmon: 325
Pieter: I just looked it up on freetranslation.com, and it didn't translate it, Mom.
Carmon: and 330
7:15 PM
Carmon: ok...a research project
Kate Nickelby: Reminds me of..
Carmon: can you think of any other historical figures who annoyed God and paid for it?
Kate Nickelby: Doth the Lord hate,
Kate Nickelby: ...a proud heart
Jamie: what is the context, Kate? oh, is that the word that the losing soldier/lieutenant said when asked to surrender?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon: yes...pride goeth before a fall (in KJV)
Carmon: maybe it's a word you shouldn't know
Kate Nickelby: That did strike me as possible
Carmon: did you see my question above?
Kate Nickelby: How about Nero
Kate Nickelby: ?
Carmon: yup
Carmon: anyone else?
Kate Nickelby: I'm reluctant to bring up too many
Kate Nickelby: from not knowing both sides
Carmon: how about the rest of the club?
Pieter: *thinking*
Kate Nickelby: Mary Queen of Scots
Kate Nickelby: Robespierre
Carmon: yup
Kate Nickelby: Hitler
Jamie: (er...my translation translated...y'all are right--it ISN'T a word that needs repeating)
Carmon: Nebuchadnezzar
Pieter: yes...but how did they annoy God?
Carmon: thought so
Pieter: Neb, yes.
Pieter: but Mary? and R.?
Carmon: laughing
Pieter: I mean...
Kate Nickelby: I'll tell you later.
Pieter: I can see them being evil...wrong...
Pieter: but...
Carmon: getting your head chopped off is a pretty big comeuppance
Kate Nickelby: Mary was a determined flirt and jilt and plotted to murder her own husband
Kate Nickelby: Robie, well you know...
Pieter: yes. but was she worse than any other princess/queen/whatever in the past who's died? couldn't you list a good dozen others, at least?
Carmon: he had a good time sending everyone to the guillotine and trying to remake france in his own image
Kate Nickelby: Isn't anyone who is sinning annoying God in a way?
Pieter: that's what I'd think, Kate.
7:20 PM
Kate Nickelby: Then *hopefully* we agree?
Carmon: yes...but He is patient to a point, and sometimes it is obvious when His patience ends
Kate Nickelby: The children of Israel come to mind
Jamie: a good example of God's patience
Carmon: With them His patience lasted the longest, I think
Pieter: the Jews...Fall of Jerusalem.
Kate Nickelby: And example of how longsuffering He is with His church
Carmon: Ok...let's go on...
Carmon: yes, Pieter
Kate Nickelby: About Waterloo..
Carmon: yes?
Kate Nickelby: I found it interesting that
Kate Nickelby: The soldiers died in a pit
Kate Nickelby: Rather like Fantine's burial
Carmon: a hidden pit
Carmon: an unmarked grave?
Kate Nickelby: Yes.
Carmon: There are many examples of injustice in this book
Pieter: what's it mean?
Pieter: if anything...
Kate Nickelby: It means that life is not always fair
Kate Nickelby: According to our notion of fairness
Pieter: I mean...what do the unmarked graves mean?
Carmon: Hugo is creating a longing for justice in the readers' minds
Carmon: That those who longed for something better, and should deserve better, died ignominiously
Kate Nickelby: With Jean, and Fantine, and Cosette, and the soldiers.
Carmon: Did we lose Jamie?
Jamie: I'm sorry, no
Jamie: but make Pieter stop sending messages!
Jamie: I can't cope with talking and the discussion at the same time
Jamie: I'm not a genius...just a poor girl
Carmon: Pieter...knock it off
Pieter: yes, yes. I'm knocking it off.
Carmon: I wanted to point out one more thing about the battle
Jamie: ?
Kate Nickelby: And that is?
Carmon: It was a Pyrrhic victory for the English...do you know what that means?
Jamie: noo...not offhand
Pieter: yeah. bittersweet.
Jamie: I've heard the term...but...Pieter, you shouldn't sound so proud of yourself
Pieter: it was an unpleasant victory. they lost, even though they won.
Kate Nickelby: It wasn't because of their valor or anything
Pieter: but why?
7:25 PM
Pieter: proud? who's being proud?
Carmon: http://www.who2.com/pyrrhus.html
Pieter: I just answered the question.
Carmon: read this...very short
Jamie: *reading*
Jamie: ah, ok...that makes sense...
Kate Nickelby: So, it was too costly for them
Carmon: that's right...it takes the fun out of winning because your losses are so great
Carmon: a new term for your vocabulary
Kate Nickelby: Thanks!
Carmon: 41% of all the soldiers died at Waterloo
Carmon: Let's talk about the narrative voice
Kate Nickelby: How did that shape M. Thernardier's character, do you think?
Carmon: We'll get there in a minute
Kate Nickelby: Sorry.
Carmon:
Carmon: The book changes voices...
Pieter: 41 percent of all soldiers, on both sides put together?
Carmon: from a first-person narrative of the main story to historical accounts...yes Pieter
Pieter: ok.
Carmon: Do you think the change in voices adds to or detracts from the story?
Pieter: where is there first person in the book?
Kate Nickelby: It reminds me of looking up an article about the book I was reading except the article is right in the book
Carmon: Sorry, third person
Pieter: ah...ok. thanks.
Jamie: I'm not sure...I enjoy reading the historical sidenotes...and certainly SOME of them are helpful...
Carmon: paraphrase
Jamie: but perhaps not to the extent that he wrote about them
Carmon: do youthink they are sidenotes?
Jamie: sorry, go ahead Kate
Pieter: right. I think the story would be...err...much more foreceful...if Hugo refrained from these constant historical interjections.
Kate Nickelby: I think they have a meaning that will unfold with the story
Jamie: well, the story proper is sometimes sidetracked...
Pieter: I like reading the history, but not IN the novel.
Kate Nickelby: But it helps make the novel more meaningful
Jamie: but the historical interjections set the scene better than it would be otherwise
Jamie: I think it adds in a way, and detracts in a way
7:30 PM
Carmon: I think that the themes of the story are interwoven with the history, so that it all becomes much deeper
Jamie: it doesn't make for pithy action...but it gives a fuller understanding of the story
Pieter: well...perhaps with the Waterloo bit, yes, Kate. but the bit about the convents was useless to the story.
Carmon: Jamie, you should be a diplomat
Kate Nickelby: I found it helpful
Pieter: right, Jamie. there are pluses and minuses to it.
Carmon: the convents were important...we'll talk about that
Jamie: *grin*
Kate Nickelby: It helped the analogy with it and the prison
Kate Nickelby: by knowing just what it was like
Carmon: ok...let's talk about some of the themes
Carmon: does anyone want to tell me any themes they noticed?
Kate Nickelby: You already mentioned the injustice of the world
Carmon: Did you notice a tension between his idea of God and Fate?
Carmon: Sometimes he uses the words interchangeably...
Kate Nickelby: I found his "ideas" about God to be rather deistic
Jamie: right, I noticed...
Pieter: mmm...yeah.
Pieter: in some parts.
Jamie: I think he portrays God as taking an active hand in molding history...
Carmon: I agree, but then it seems like he notices God intervening in specific instances...like he didn't have it figured out for himself
Pieter: it strikes me that he wasn't so deistic in other parts, but I won't bring that up since I can't remember which parts.
Carmon: take notes, Pieter
Pieter: yep. I woulda if I'd thought I'd be talking about this.
Carmon: how about when Cosette met Jean in the woods
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 517 was pretty deistic
Kate Nickelby: That was powerful
Carmon: she had just been praying, in a way
Kate Nickelby: And there he was
Carmon: that was a turning point in the story
Kate Nickelby: Notice she calls him "Father"
Kate Nickelby: With a capital "F"
Jamie: he didn't exactly say that Jean was an answer to her PRAYER...but that is SEEMED to Cosette that he was, right?
Jamie: *that it*
Carmon: i think that it was implied by how it all worked out
Kate Nickelby: She trusted him implicitly because of that
Carmon: the same with the gas lamps not being lit and the rope being there
Pieter: err...
Pieter: when we say "deistic"...
Pieter: do we mean...
Kate Nickelby: The chapter titles were good, weren't they?
7:35 PM
Carmon: I think Father was a universal term of respect for an older person
Carmon: yes...very blunt and direct
Pieter: "a god somewhere who sometimes cares for stuff" or "an active God who's involved in things"?
Carmon: the former
Carmon: like thomas jefferson believed
Carmon: i'm sure that france (which jefferson admired) and the enlightenment, produced a lot of deism
Jamie: I don't think he portrayed God as deistic, then
Pieter: ah. right. then why does it seem like we're saying the story is deistic and yet prayers are being answered and God is intervening in Waterloo and with the lamps and all?
Carmon: did you notice how he sometimes used fate and God interchageably
Kate Nickelby: Yes.
Carmon: we're saying both are true...there is tension between these two ideas
Kate Nickelby: Rather postmodern, isn't it?
Pieter: ok.
Carmon: i think that Hugo was a tormented man who was searching for truth, who knew a lot about the Bible, but he also wanted to live his sinful life his own way
Pieter: was his life sinful?
Pieter: and what parts are deistic?
Carmon: There are many authors who fight with themselves in this way...Oscar Wilde is one
Kate Nickelby: Read pg 517 and what he says about prayer
Carmon: he had a mistress and abandoned his family
Jamie: we don't all have the same version...where roughly is it in the story, Kate?
Carmon: Pieter has a different version
Kate Nickelby: Near the convent part
Carmon: Chapter V...prayer
Kate Nickelby: Sort of at the end
Pieter: Kate, you've got a different version. the pages aren't the same.
Kate Nickelby: Yes, but the position of the chapters should be
Carmon: "at the same time, while there is an infinite outside of us, is there not an infinite within us?
Carmon: "
Carmon: does that sound like orthodox Christianity?
Jamie: yeah, I noticed his theological theorizing there...
Jamie: well...depends on how it's meant
Kate Nickelby: He is exalting man
Carmon: "The 'me' below is the soul; the 'me' abouve is God."
Jamie: the "infinite within us" could be the...right. the soul
7:40 PM
Pieter: right. it depends on what you make of it. it could be bad, could be good. depends on how the person chooses to read that passage.
Pieter: rather ambiguous...
Jamie: I think Hugo meant it to be the soul...
Jamie: possibly more too...but I think his basic idea was that it was the soul
Pieter: possibly.
Kate Nickelby: What about the "Me" above?
Jamie: God
Carmon: I think he had some deistic notions...he seems to struggle with fate bringing suffering and
Jamie: doesn't he come right out and say that?
Pieter: say what? say that about fate? or say that about the upper "me" being God?
Kate Nickelby: But why "me"?
Carmon: then sees God being the one who relieves it
Jamie: say that God is the "me" above
Kate Nickelby: What he really struggles with, then, is sin and its effect on the world.
Jamie: it's actually a common way to go about proving God's existence, Kate...in philosophy...
Carmon: I think Kate wants to know why God and Me are the same
Jamie: the "me" is the spirit
Kate Nickelby: So, does he identify God with himself?
Jamie: it refers to the thing that is aware of itself
Jamie: no
Jamie: um...
Jamie: help me out someone...
Pieter: I would but I don't know what you're talking about.
Jamie: the "me" does not refer to Jean or Hugo, but...
Carmon: that's ok...we'll go on now...the philosophical part is a little too complext to tackle right now
Jamie: ok...good
Kate Nickelby: May we go on to Thernardier, please?
Carmon: Themes...
Jamie: oh, wait...
Carmon: how about heroism and valor
Carmon: contrasted with selfishness and greed
Kate Nickelby: Fauchelevant was the hero to me in this section
Carmon: he was my favorite character
Kate Nickelby: He put Valjean before himself
Jamie: yes...
Kate Nickelby: Mine too!
Carmon: why did he change
Carmon: ?
Carmon: just call him F.
Kate Nickelby: Because Jean had sacrificed himself for Fauchelevant.
Pieter: *ventures*...because of what Jean V. did for him?
Jamie: well, it says because...he was...I'll find it
Kate Nickelby: Yes.
Carmon: What fable is their story reminiscent of?
Kate Nickelby: The mouse and the tiger
Carmon: lion
7:45 PM
Kate Nickelby: oops.
Carmon: http://poke.home.donobi.net/aesop.html#lionmouse
Carmon: another short story
Carmon: the book says F. was also changed through suffering
Pieter: yeah.
Carmon: "F. was an old man...
Kate Nickelby: Suffering from what?
Jamie: it says that the "air he had been breathing for the past years"...that of the convent...destroyed his "personality"...that is, his selfishness...and caused him to want to do a virtuous thing
Carmon: who had been selfish throughout his life and who,...
Pieter: I think the air in the convent would do that to ANYBODY...
Pieter: F. or anyone else.
Carmon: near the end of his days, crippled, infirm, having no remaining interest in the world, found it sweet to be grateful"
Carmon: There is much suffering in this book...sometimes it changes people for the better, but not always
Pieter: why is his "personality" synonymous with "selfishness"?
Kate Nickelby: Because that's what he was
Jamie: because he personality WAS to be selfish...
Carmon: remember him in the cart incident, Pieter?
Jamie: the context shows it to mean his selfishness
Pieter: ok. yes.
Carmon: he was one of Jean's biggest critics
Carmon: That's why Jean's sacrificial act was so sublime
Jamie: yes, he nearly hated Jean before the cart incident...
Kate Nickelby: Contrast that with "If he were an assassin, would I save him? I would anyway."
Kate Nickelby: "Since he is a saint, shall I save him? Absolutely."
Carmon: F. also developed keen insight
Jamie: interesting, since he knew NOTHING of what had gone on afterwards...
Kate Nickelby: He, like Cosette, trusted Valjean
Jamie: he did not know that M. Madeleine was Jean valJean
Pieter: did he even know who Jean Valjean was?
Carmon: That's right
Jamie: no, he didn't
Kate Nickelby: I'm dying to know if he finds out before the end.
Pieter: right.
Carmon: he had left before things fell apart
Jamie: but still they put that in about "if he were a thief, would I? an assassin, would I?"
Carmon: F. says:
7:50 PM
Carmon: "God must have taken you into His hand to have a close look at you, then put you down." page 529
Carmon: That is truer than he knew
Carmon: he was trying to figure out how jean got into the convent
Pieter: if that's true, then what about the "but He made a mistake" bit...?
Carmon: do you remember...
Jamie: he made a mistake? what mistake, Pieter?
Kate Nickelby: By not putting him down outside the convent
Carmon: it was funny...
Jamie: *grin*
Carmon: he said it should have been a monastery instead
Jamie: oh, yeah, that!
Pieter: I believe it says that God took up Valjean and made a mistake by putting him in the convent...
Jamie: Pieter...
Carmon: I think F. is a sort of clown in this story
Carmon: a wise clown
Pieter: now, if the first was true...God took up Valjean...was the second true? or just meant to be amusing?
Jamie: er...a monastery is for MEN
Jamie: a convent is for WOMEN
Kate Nickelby: He is hilarious at the graveyard!
Jamie:
Pieter: yes, Jamie?
Carmon: both true and amusing
Jamie: he was joking, of course
Kate Nickelby: The part when he finally brings himself to buy the drinks for Gribier was very funny.
Carmon: do you remember his conversation with the prioress?
Jamie: yes...
Pieter: so the "mistake" was a joke" and the "taken you up" was true?
Carmon: yes..that was funny kate
Carmon: yes
Carmon: he didn't mean to be funny, he just was
Carmon: ok?
Kate Nickelby: I could just SEE him as the dirt was being shoveled on!
Jamie: right
Carmon: with the prioress...can you guys find that...page 535 kate
Kate Nickelby: His conversation where he claimed Jean was his brother?
Jamie: *finding it*
Jamie: found it
Carmon: chapter 3 in that section
Kate Nickelby: The illegal burial
Carmon: read where she says: "now wouldn't it look well for a man to enter the room of the dead!" sarcastically
Carmon: and he says, "more often!"
Kate Nickelby: Meaning?
Pieter: I read that, but I'm afraid I didn't get the humor.
Carmon: then she is confused and he keeps repeating it like he is answering an honest question
Pieter: I understand that men never went in the room of the dead...
Jamie: I missed it too...let me re-read it
Pieter: but why's he harping on that?
7:55 PM
Carmon: she gets mad...and he keeps insisting that he is only agreeing with her, when she was being sarcastic
Carmon: it's kind of like "Who's on First"
Pieter: ok. that bit is a little amusing...
Kate Nickelby: Is he saying men should enter the room of the dead more often?
Carmon: it only ends when the clock strikes
Jamie: Pieter, I'm afraid you and I miss these things...we're not sufficiently well-versed in humor
Carmon: i think he's tired of all the women all the time
Pieter: I'm not sure why he slipped it in the book, though. it's funny, sorta. but, well...necessary?
Carmon: it's like saying...we sure do need more men around here
Kate Nickelby: Probably thankful for his little bell, than not
Pieter: I think so, S.
Carmon: you guys need a funny bone...or more shakespeare
Jamie: you know, just a side note...
Jamie: well, remark, not note
Pieter: yes?
Pieter: it was ok...it just wasn't THAT funny.
Kate Nickelby: The boarding girls' endeavors to see men, illustrated that.
Jamie: I thought it was intriguing how Hugo writes it as if it were a TRUE story...the little unnecessary bits he adds here and there fit with that illusion
Kate Nickelby: Fauchelevant was a gardener.
Carmon: he inserts himself, kind of like the story of The Princess Bride, if you've ever read it
Carmon: Yes, F. being a gardener is very significant
Jamie: yep, I've read it
Kate Nickelby: How so?
Pieter: that's true, S. that would tend to explain things...he's writing it as though it were true.
Carmon: remember the theme of gardens from the last discussion
Kate Nickelby: Yes, but what did it mean?
Jamie: right...you're saying that this continues the theme?
Kate Nickelby: Redemption!
Pieter: like what in the P. Bride?
Kate Nickelby: Ah, I remember.
Kate Nickelby: F. "redeemed" Valjean.
Carmon: Pieter, keep up
Kate Nickelby: He was a sort of Savior
Carmon: yes, and gardens are a place of refuge, comfort, peace
Jamie: Pieter, we're out of our depth...we'll just have to humbly listen...
Pieter: keep WHAT up?
Carmon: uh-uh, everybody talks!
Jamie: interesting symbolism...i confess I wouldn't have caught near as much of it if you didn't point it out!
Carmon: the author inserting himself in the story like in the P.B.
Pieter: oh. ok.
Carmon: Garden...
Carmon: "A gardener is a sort of gravedigger..."
8:00 PM
Jamie: *puzzled*
Carmon: reminds me of planting seeds, which die, but bring forth new life
Pieter: well, it's not so much just like in the P.B. I mean, that sort of insertion seems to be pretty common in 19th century literature.
Carmon: another analogy
Jamie: oh...right
Carmon: Also...earth
Kate Nickelby: Which contrasts with the morbidity of the convent
Jamie: do you think Hugo intended all these analogies? or did they just...happen?
Carmon: "earth is the same thing as a man"...very biblical, when he was going to put earth in the coffin
Kate Nickelby: I like the analogy on pg. 494, with dust and death
Carmon: I think he intended them
Kate Nickelby: "A child who broke the silence made a tongue cross, Where? on the floor. She licked the tiles. Dust, that end to all joys, was chastising poor little rosebuds guilty of chatter."
Carmon: do you mean when the little girls had to lick the dust into the shape of a cross?
Jamie: there are certainly a lot of them....
Kate Nickelby: That was just cruel.
Carmon: do you think this garden will have a snake?
Jamie: um....
Kate Nickelby: Yes, but I'm afraid to think who it will be.
Jamie: I vote for Javert! but I hope he doesn't show up
Carmon: Do you think that Jean being a gardener now is a kind of promotion?
Kate Nickelby: I was rather worried at first that Javert would find out about the nun's body being buried illegally and come in and find Jean.
Carmon: Javert is definitely creepy, but like Satan, he is not all-powerful...just seems like it sometimes
Pieter: but that wouldn't be Javert's prerogative, Kate...he wasn't in charge of the D.O.Health or whatever.
Jamie: there wouldn't be enough of a connection there, anyway
Pieter: yes, but is Javert EVIL/
Pieter: ?
Kate Nickelby: Isn't it interesting, that Jean couldn't be promoted to gardener until he had "died"?
Jamie: no...
Carmon: he gets messages from different places, though
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Carmon: sorry
Jamie: oh...
Jamie: oh well
Kate Nickelby: Sighs of relief...
Jamie: welcome back, Mrs. Friedrich
Pieter: ok, yes. he's too zealous with his job...but I don't think he's really evil...anymore than a normal unredeemed human.
Pieter: dang.
Jamie: (nobody tell on me)
Pieter: we were just about to break out the booze, too.
Carmon: why is he so determined to get Jean?
Pieter: Mom, Jamie was going to start a party while you were gone.
8:05 PM
Carmon: has Javert changed in this story?
Jamie: Pieter! shush
Jamie: well...I don't think so, no
Kate Nickelby: Because he has a warped view of justice
Pieter: for some reason he's turned a run-of-the-mill police job into something personal.
Jamie: Javert is the law...a pharisee...the letter of the law for him...not the spirit
Kate Nickelby: He seemed to me to have grown rather proud
Pieter: right, Jamie.
Jamie: wasn't he always rather proud?
Kate Nickelby: with his playing around with Jean during the chaser
Jamie: or...perhaps you're right
Pieter: he was incautious, if that's what you mean, Kate. overconfident.
Kate Nickelby: Yes...proud
Carmon: I think he seems a little insane whereas before he was just determined to do his job to the letter
Kate Nickelby: That's it!
Jamie: he almost seems to have a personal grudge against Jean
Carmon: do you think that he is a little Napoleon?
Pieter: right. why's he making it so persona?
Pieter: *personal.
Carmon: if you can be littler than Napoleon
Jamie: but then...doesnt' it say in the beginning that he almost takes every criminal act as a personal affront?
Kate Nickelby: I hadn't thought about Napoleon! Maybe Javert's annoying God.
Pieter: err...yeah, I think so, Jamie.
Pieter: perhaps, Kate. but what's the evidence for taht?
Pieter: *that?
Carmon: Another theme:
Kate Nickelby: Annoying God?
Carmon: true spirituality vs. outward piety (legalism)
Pieter: yes, Kate.
Carmon: give me an example
Pieter: and right, Mom.
Carmon: yoohoo
Jamie: well....were all the nuns really truly spiritual?
Pieter: no.
Kate Nickelby: the convent was outward piety
Jamie: it seems to me that Jean had a REAL faith, and the nuns were...trying to do right, but missing it
Kate Nickelby: But, in a way, Hugo felt sorry for them.
Carmon: they pray a lot
Kate Nickelby: Because they WERE trying to get it right
Jamie: I thought he revered them
Carmon: he respected those who wanted to be close to God...
Pieter: true, Jamie. but then it's strange...at the end of the section, Hugo talks about all Jean was learning from them...humility, I believe he said...
Pieter: ok.
Jamie: thought they were something grand because of their innocence and yet..er...their atoning for "other people's sin" or something of the sort
Pieter: that makes sense, Mom.
Carmon: but he realized that their system was wrong
Jamie: Hugo or Jean?
Kate Nickelby: It was as though he condemned them for their inhumanity, but respected their desire to do right
Kate Nickelby: Hugo
Carmon: Hugo
Jamie: oh, right
Jamie: I agree there
8:10 PM
Carmon: i think the nuns were seen as vicTims of the institution
Kate Nickelby: I thought the comparison between the prison and the convent was interesting
Pieter: err...so Hugo respected the nuns for wanting to be close to God? didn't Jean do the same? or...?
Kate Nickelby: pg. 570
Carmon: but that heartfelt prayers like Cosette's or Jean's in times of crisis were the ones that were answered
Jamie: they were rather...they were vicTims of an idea...the idea that outward piety was the measure of inward spirituality...
Kate Nickelby: They were trying to earn their salvation
Carmon: yes...which prison was preferable?
Pieter: so God answered the death-bed conversion type prayers?
Kate Nickelby: As opposed to Jean, who was mercifully saved.
Kate Nickelby: No, he answered the humble prayers.
Carmon: no...the prayers which were heartfelt
Pieter: I can't really say. neither prison was too great...
Carmon: not mechanical
Jamie: which prison?
Carmon: the convent or the real prison
Jamie: you mean, where Jean contrasts the galleys with the convent?
Kate Nickelby: I would say the real prison was better
Jamie: oh, right...
Carmon: the convent didn't sound so great in comparison
Pieter: right, Mom. but also, they were prayers prayed in desperation...not as a regular habit. like a death-bed or before-the-battle conversion.
Jamie: well...I couldn't say...I would think the convent
Jamie: no...
Jamie: I don't know
Kate Nickelby: because it was at least only physical bondage not spiritual
Pieter: right. like I said, it's a toss-up which one was better.
Carmon: for the nuns, that is true
Kate Nickelby: Maybe.
Carmon: but for jean, wasn't the convent better?
Jamie: at least the nuns were allowed to try to be "good"...
Kate Nickelby: May we PLEASE talk about the Thernardiers?
Jamie: that is...they DID try...I wouldn't say that they COULDN'T get it right at the convent...there was more of a possibility there than in the real prison
Pieter: right.
Carmon: ok...Kate, but
Kate Nickelby: But there were convent rules, that couldn't be broken
Jamie: I mean...wasn't there? they weren't as ignorant of spiritual matters as the convicts
Carmon: about the convent...jean was in a kind of prison there too...
Jamie: btw, does anyone know what "in pace" means?
Pieter: what's the context?
Carmon: i wondered that too
Jamie: was it sort of...a punishment?
Pieter: oh...
Kate Nickelby: Who was in pace?
Jamie: it describes what sounded like punishment cells in certain convents...
Carmon: i need to find the latin dictionary
Jamie: and how the "in pace" took the place of the leather sack
Jamie: and....how Hugo thought it was cruelty
Carmon: for jean, like for us, he was in a prison wherever he was, but in one he was free
Pieter: where was that, Jamie?
Jamie: something about "burying them alive"
Kate Nickelby: pacem means peace, if that helps
Jamie: um.....
Jamie: Book 7th
Jamie: section 2...
8:15 PM
Jamie: or...section II
Pieter: ok
Jamie: called The Convent As A Historical Fact
Jamie: near the end
Pieter: *looks*
Jamie: "the orifices of secret dungeons...four stone cells, half underground and half under water. These were "in pace" "
Carmon: why don't we look it up later and we can report back
Jamie: ok...
Jamie: it's latin, though?
Pieter: ok.
Jamie: I didn't know what it was
Carmon: we'll talk about the thenardiers in a minute...but i want to mention one more theme...birds
Kate Nickelby: Birds?
Jamie: birds?
Carmon: did you notice any metaphors about birds?
Kate Nickelby: I am ashamed to say...no
Pieter: I don't remember ANY birds.
Carmon: what is cosette's nickname
Jamie: *hurriedly skims through book*
Pieter: lark.
Kate Nickelby: little lark
Carmon: on page 434 it says that "like birds of prey...
Carmon: he had chosen the loneliest place to make his nest"
Pieter: is that a theme, though? isn't it just metaphors?
Carmon: in the tenement
Pieter: yes?
Carmon: Jean is like a Phoenix rising fromt he ashes...
Carmon: Do you know that myth?
Pieter: yes.
Jamie: yes
Kate Nickelby: no
Jamie: ha ha! yes I DO! something I finally KNOW!
Jamie: *looks smug*
Carmon: http://worldTimzone.com/blog/date/2002/09/29
Kate Nickelby: *blushes*
Carmon: here is something to read later about it, kate
Pieter: don't look TOO smug. *I* knew it, too.
Carmon: also, they are hunted like birds, traps are set by Thenardier and by javert
Carmon: cosette's singing is compared to a bird
8:20 PM
Kate Nickelby: Doesn't it mention Javert playing with him as a cat with a bird?
Carmon: yes
Carmon: i would have found more...but the light didn't come on until about halfway through
Carmon: oh...
Carmon: the convent is like a birds' cage
Jamie: *sigh* my light NEVER comes on...I don't catch these things.....
Kate Nickelby: Buck up, lassie
Pieter: I have to agree with Jamie...sadly. I don't catch these things.
Carmon: be looking for it in the next section and see if you find anymore that reminds you of birds
Jamie: (it was because I got embalmed in the convent section...it took me two hours to crawl out)
Pieter: was it in the first section?
Carmon: ok, kate, tell us about the thenardiers
Jamie: ok, I'll do that
Kate Nickelby: I found it interesting
Carmon: i don't remember Pieter
Carmon: yes?
Kate Nickelby: That though she was so fearful to others
Kate Nickelby: The Thernardiess was quite submissive to her husband
Kate Nickelby: Who was a rascal
Carmon: Why was she submissive to him?
Kate Nickelby: And a soldier who robbed the graves of his comrades
Carmon: let's play a game
Kate Nickelby: Because he was intellectually superior
Kate Nickelby: Oh goodie!
Carmon: think of as many descriptive words as you can for M. Thenardier, one at a time
Kate Nickelby: sly
Carmon: craven
Jamie: greedy
Carmon: Pieter?
Pieter: sallow
Kate Nickelby: scheming
Carmon: hypocrite
Jamie: sharp
Pieter: rapacious
Pieter: indolent
Pieter: shrewd
Carmon: angry
Kate Nickelby: unmerciful
Pieter: cunning
Pieter: lean
Carmon: liar
Pieter: yellow-faced
Kate Nickelby: thief
Jamie: oily
Pieter: wary
Carmon: single-minded
Pieter: self-controlled.
Jamie: devious
Pieter: by no means indifferent to maid servants
8:25 PM
Pieter: knavish
Pieter: cool-headed
Carmon: ok, had enough?
Jamie: cruel
Jamie: yes, now I have
Kate Nickelby: I think I get the picture
Carmon: remember when he robbed the soldier?
Jamie: wasn't a very nice guy, was he?
Kate Nickelby: Sadly, yes
Jamie: *shudder* yes...I HATED him there
Pieter: nope.
Jamie: Pieter! go read it! it'll make your skin creep
Pieter: yeah. the soldier was expecting him to come as a helper...
Pieter: and he left the soldier.
Carmon: at waterloo
Pieter: I READ it Jamie.
Pieter: I meant "nope" in response to your "wasn't a very nice guy, was he?"
Carmon: there was irony here...he was seen as a hero by the soldier
Pieter: *starts to call Jamie mean name, but then remembers Mom said not to fight...*
Jamie: amazing how appearances can decieve....
Jamie: deceive, I mean
Kate Nickelby: I'm on the look out for Pontmercy to show up
Jamie: yeah, me too...
Carmon: me too
Pieter: i before e except after...umm...c...
Carmon: that was the soldier's name Pieter
Jamie: or...was he the one that started Thenardier out as an innkeeper?
Pieter: right. I know that, Mom.
Carmon: peiter
Jamie: gave him a '
Jamie: "stake"?
Carmon: that's where he got the money
Carmon: but he was not good with managing it
Jamie: from stealing from Pontmercy? or did P. give it to him?
Jamie: apparently not...which surprised me...
Carmon: stole it, but then P. gave it to him not knowing he already took it
Jamie: I would have thought that he would be shrewd with money
Kate Nickelby: That was really moving
Carmon: it is like he is cursed
Carmon: and though he suffers, Jean is blessed
Jamie: *thoughtfully* that is a good description...
Carmon: whatever jean does seems to thrive
Kate Nickelby: I thought it was horrid how they didn't want their son
Carmon: you'll see that in the next section about his job as a gardener
Kate Nickelby: Kind of the way they didn't want Cosette
Carmon: i agree...and i'm not sure i understand that
Jamie: how..er..oh, the Thenardiers
Pieter: it didn't really talk about their son much, thoug.
Pieter: *though.
Carmon: it's like she doesn't like males, except her husband
Jamie: well, the Thenardiess was rather like an animal...
8:30 PM
Carmon: she's like a perverse nun
Jamie: she loved the girls and hated the boy
Jamie: animals sometimes reject their offspring, right?
Kate Nickelby: She IS like a nun gone mad
Jamie: how was she like a nun at ALL?
Pieter: umm...
Kate Nickelby: She shunned males
Carmon: because the nuns didn't want to have anything to do with males...
Pieter: yeah. how WAS she like a nun?
Jamie: oh...
Jamie: well...yes
Kate Nickelby: and she was cruel to Cosette
Pieter: not her husband...she didn't shun him. the only male she shunned was her son.
Carmon: she is a twisted picture of the convent
Pieter: ok.
Jamie: a nun was NOT the first thing that came to my mind when I thought of her, though
Carmon: it just came to my mind, thinking of why she rejected her son
Kate Nickelby: But she is rather unfeminine and, well, unmarriagiable, though
Carmon: right...there is nothing feminine about her...she even has a beard
Kate Nickelby: I was just going to mention that
Jamie: yeah, the Thenardier pair is interesting....tiny, grasping husband...big, beefy wife
Carmon: jack sprat and his wife
Jamie: I liked that part! *grin*
Kate Nickelby: How did he ever get her?
Pieter: like Jack...
Pieter: yeah.
Kate Nickelby: With his penchant for maid servants and all
Carmon: it was probably for some pragmatic purpose...did it tell?
Kate Nickelby: Not that I'm aware of
Jamie: um...I don't recall
Pieter: no.
Carmon: ok...a couple more questions
Carmon: do you think this is a pessimistic or an opTimistic book...try to pick one or the other
Carmon: hello?
Pieter: opt.
Kate Nickelby: opTimistic; because, at least so far, they are always ulTimately delivered
Pieter: opTimistic.
Carmon: i don't want to cause brain meltdown
Pieter: right. and it ends happily.
Carmon: why Pieter?
Kate Nickelby: Pieter! Did you PEEK?
Carmon: from the stuff you've read so far
Jamie: opTimistic, I think...but not naively so
Pieter: I mean this SECTION of the book.
Pieter: or did you mean the WHOLE book, Mom?
Carmon: so far
Kate Nickelby: So far, opTimistic
8:35 PM
Carmon: don't you think it has a view...
Pieter: why this section...because they're safe...relatively happy...I haven't the slightest about the book as a whole.
Carmon: more far-reaching than just the events of the moment?
Kate Nickelby: you mean the section?
Carmon: the book, so far
Jamie: yes...
Pieter: what do you mean...a view more far-reaching etc?
Jamie: because, no matter what ulTimately happens to valJean, Hugo makes it clear that he has been liberated...that his soul has been saved
Carmon: fantine's death was tragic, but she was going to be in heaven for eternity
Jamie: right...it also says someplace that people like the Thenardier's had nothing to die for OR live for...
Kate Nickelby: I see...
Carmon: right...the suffering is but for a moment, but salvation is forever
Jamie: that death for them was...far different than for Cosette...contrasting the fate of the wicked with the righteous
Pieter: ok...yes.
Carmon: you can see sanctification happening, and there is a purpose to it, even if it seems unfair
Pieter: *gasps* you believe in sanctification?
Kate Nickelby: Because they will come out right in the end.
Carmon: yes...and we will cheer when they get what they deserve
Pieter: well, well....thank God SOMEBODY does.
Carmon: and we will be amazed if they are converted
Pieter: yes.
Kate Nickelby: The Thernardiers?
Jamie: yes, and...er...perhaps a little disappointed
Jamie: you rather want to see them get their dues
Kate Nickelby: Amen!
Jamie: I mean, *I* do
Jamie: you probably aren't that uncharitable
Carmon: But if they are saved, then that will show God's power and we will be happy like for F.
Kate Nickelby: Am I not allowed to agree with Toff?
Carmon: Right?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Jamie: er...right
Jamie: I will make myself be happy for them
Carmon: he was a bad guy, too
Kate Nickelby: Fauchelevant
Jamie: not NEARLY as bad though
Carmon: yes
Jamie: well...IF they repent, I'll try to feel happy about it
Carmon: any vocabulary words? ok Jamie
Carmon:
Kate Nickelby: I found it interesting that Cosette had started to be "bad" after staying with the Thernardiers
Carmon: do you mean deceptive?
Kate Nickelby: Evil communications, and yes, deceit
Pieter: but Hugo doesn't make that out like it's bad...
Carmon: i think cosette has some struggles coming
8:40 PM
Pieter: he seems to say that it's normal...a childish thing.
Jamie: I don't think so
Jamie: he said that it was because of her condition...
Pieter: no?
Kate Nickelby: I thought the same thing
Jamie: that frightened children lie...that she was reacting to her fear
Carmon: i think he sees it as that and as her becoming something bad to deal with her situation
Pieter: yes, but it also says that, like all children, she lied when afraid...
Jamie: and...apparently...that she would lose that fault when she was no longer afraid
Pieter: I think it's both...he sees it as a normal reaction, and also not something necessarily to be condoned.
Carmon: i think cosette is less afraid, but she is still fearful
Kate Nickelby: But she's corroborating with the Thernardier's lie with one of her own
Carmon: which is?
Kate Nickelby: About watering the horse
Jamie: ok, y'all, I have to run...
Carmon: awww
Jamie: family devotions and whatnot...
Kate Nickelby: It's been real
Jamie: *grin* glad to see you'll miss me
Carmon: ok, Jamie...thanks
Pieter: did the T's lie...? or did Mrs. T. just think that C. had actually watered the h's?
Jamie: thanks too! it was a good discussion
Carmon: bye
Jamie: I wish I could stay longer...
Carmon: bye
Jamie: bye
Pieter: bye, Jamie.
Kate Nickelby: Bye!
Jamie has left this chat.
Carmon: Kate, do you have any vocabulary words you looked up?
Kate Nickelby: The Th.'s lied, Pieter
Kate Nickelby: No vocabulary this time!
Carmon: Pieter?
Pieter: nope.
Carmon: i'll give you a couple
Carmon: faubourg: a suburb of a French city
Carmon: elide: to leave out of consideration; to strike out (as a written word)
Carmon: orison: prayer
Carmon: ok?
Pieter: ok.
Kate Nickelby: ok
Kate Nickelby:
Carmon: Try finding some words for next time to look up...i know that I don't know all of them, but you guys are probably a lot smarter than I
Carmon:
8:45 PM
Kate Nickelby: I can't stand by and have you put yourself down, now!
Carmon: Is there anything else you wanted to talk about in the book, Kate?
Kate Nickelby: Umm.
Kate Nickelby: How about
Kate Nickelby: Jean's escape
Kate Nickelby: from the convent ship
Kate Nickelby: while rescuing someone
Kate Nickelby: from a watery grave
Kate Nickelby: ?
Carmon: ok...there are many escapes in this book
Carmon: and many deaths and resurrections
Kate Nickelby: This is another one of those dying to live themes
Pieter: was he rescuing from a watery grave or just from a grave?
Kate Nickelby: I always say what I mean
Carmon: i don't know if the sailor would have fallen in the water...but he fell in the water and "died"
Kate Nickelby:
Kate Nickelby: He would have died if he had fallen.
Carmon: Do you see the times Jean has died and come back in a new way?
Kate Nickelby: He's been re-captured and escaped
Carmon: Yes, I meant Jean fell and "died"
Kate Nickelby: He's "drowned" and come back up
Carmon: he has a spiritual crisis each time, too
Kate Nickelby: He's been "buried" and dug up again
Kate Nickelby: I like that theme.
Carmon: like Jacob fighting with the angel
Carmon: dying is a scary thing, but Jean, once he dies, comes back even better than before
Kate Nickelby: And he is blessed more every time, too isn't he?
Carmon: Did you notice that his name, Jean, is John...kind of "everyman" in French
Carmon: John Doe
Carmon: yes, he is blessed this time with love
Carmon: for Cosetter
Carmon: Cosette
Kate Nickelby: What does Cosette mean?
Carmon: I don't know...I think it told in the first section
Carmon: page 151
8:50 PM
Carmon: a nickname of her real name, a derivation
Carmon: but not explained how it was arrived at
Kate Nickelby: Euphrasie
Carmon: yes
Kate Nickelby: Well, that was all I had left
Carmon: I don't know a lot about French
Carmon: Ok...i'll release you
Carmon: thanks for contributing so much to the conversation
Kate Nickelby: Thanks for having it!
Carmon: i'm having fun...hope it is helping you guys
Part Three
Carmon: Pieter's memories of the book ought to be REALLY fresh
Kate Nickelby: I hope I remember everything!
Kate Nickelby: I read the last section about 3 weeks ago...
Kate Nickelby: And I refreshed this afternoon...
Carmon: i'm planning to discuss the last two sections tonight
Pieter: those weren't the last two.
Kate Nickelby: I refrained from reading the very last one, so I won't get confused
Carmon: the last two but one, how's that
Carmon: ?
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: Gotcha
Pieter: you scared me for a minute.
Kate Nickelby: Me too
Carmon: ok, shall we start with telling about your favorite character or the one who intrigued you the most?
Pieter: I liked Marius a lot...
Kate Nickelby: Favorite characters!
Kate Nickelby: You what?!
Pieter: I also liked Jean Valjean in this section...he was cool.
Pieter: what? I like Marius.
Carmon: did you not like marius, Kate?
Kate Nickelby: No, not really
Carmon: why is that?
Pieter: yeah. why?
Kate Nickelby: I didn't like the way he fell in love with Cosette...
Pieter: why?
Kate Nickelby: Not knowing anything about her
Kate Nickelby: And just sort of lazing around after that...
Kate Nickelby: No initiative
Carmon: it seemed like he was rather surprised by his feelings...does it seem shallow that it was like love at third sight?
Carmon: he seemed to be a sensitive young man, controlled by his feelings
7:10 PM
Kate Nickelby: It seemed so, at least so far
Pieter: well...
Kate Nickelby: I mean, that it seemed shallow
Carmon: although, at the end, he seemed to wake up and become more like his father in some ways
Pieter: I agree he did seem to be controlled by his feelings.
Kate Nickelby: I was glad how he seemed to be growing less dependent on his feelings towards the rioting
Pieter: but I like reading about characters like that. they're more...realistic. I certainly don't enjoy hanging out with people like that, but it's interesting *reading* about them.
Kate Nickelby: I agree
Pieter: as for his dependence on his feelings...
Carmon: do you think he was a realistic character, then? is that how people behave sometimes?
Kate Nickelby: He *was* a realistic character...
Kate Nickelby: I'll say that much...
Kate Nickelby: He also seemed to be rather easily influenced by Enjroles...
Carmon: so, did his behavior turn you off because it didn't seem godly as far as his being too emotional and also his duplicity?
Pieter: I think a lot of that can be attributed to the fact that when he first was all idealistic about Bonapartism, and then that idealism was shattered in the ABC discussion...
Pieter: he really didn't know what to think. he was, perhaps, afraid to depend on his own thought and reason, because it failed him when he was placing so much faith in Bonapartism.
Carmon: he seemed to be searching for truth and for something beyond himself, struggling with it
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: So he went with his feelings instead?
Pieter: and he was searching...and thought he found something in Bonapartism...
Kate Nickelby: Because so far, his reason and thought had betrayed him?
Pieter: and then the ABC discussion disillusioned him.
Pieter: yes, I think so.
Kate Nickelby: And then his feelings led him to Cosette...
Carmon: his feelings struggled with his reason, but with Cosette he was completely swayed by them
Kate Nickelby: So, what is Hugo trying to say?
Carmon: i didn't like how he was sneaky in his meetings...although he saw his love as so pure
Kate Nickelby: Hear, hear
Pieter: his love seemed almost Gnostic...
Carmon: there are a lot of struggles in this book
Pieter: the lack of physicality was, well, admirable considering they weren't married. but it was certainly, I think, Gnosit.c
Pieter: *Gnostic.
Carmon: the whole society was a mass of confusion and conflicting ideas and emotions
Pieter: yeah.
Kate Nickelby: Aptly portrayed in the seething streets and taverns, etc.
7:15 PM
Kate Nickelby: Pieter, you're right about the gnostic "love"...
Carmon: yes, although that would have not been the case if they were married...i think he had strong Christian feelings about staying pure...he was influenced by religion a lot from a child
Kate Nickelby: Well, from peeking ahead a little...
Carmon: my head was spinning with all the factions and political opinions
Pieter: yes. but the way Hugo was talking, it seemed like he didn't even think of his love as having any physicality at all...
Pieter: or a future of physicality.
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: Later on, they do
Pieter: I can't keep all the French politics straight.
Carmon: well, thanks for telling us!
Kate Nickelby: I'm afraid I skimmed over the part about "Argot"
Carmon: i read about the history of that time
Pieter: I skipped that...it was in the appendix.
Carmon: i also read the argot section
Pieter: later on what, Kate?
Carmon: it was interesting about how the criminal classes evolved and became more evil, and the way their lingo reflected their heartlessness
Carmon: want a little info about the history?
Pieter: yeah...
Pieter: I kind of liked Montparnasse, or whatever his name was, though...even though he was evil.
Pieter: he was an interesting character...I liked his interaction with Gavroche.
Pieter: yes. info. yes.
Carmon: after napoleon, there was more confusion, he had given some stability for a time, as dictators can do
Carmon: there were ultra royalists who wanted a return to the bourbon monarchy, and they dug up someone to be king...
Carmon: but like ancient rome, there were struggles between those who wanted more of a republican form of govt and those who wanted central control
Carmon: the republicans were not compelled to obey law, though, not grounded by christianity...
Carmon: there was so much enlightenment influence
Carmon: it led to a lot of violence, because so many had faith in mankind, that it led to everyone wanting their opinions to reign supreme, and many factions formed
7:20 PM
Carmon: there were some major uprisings, especially in 1830, then the smaller one we read about in 1832...
Pieter: so where did the ABC fit into all of this?
Pieter: who was responsible for the uprisings?
Carmon: they were a subversive republican group...
Pieter: so they were...Jacobins, I guess. is that right?
Carmon: different factions created discontent among the citizens, who became unhappy because of things like bad economic conditions and the cholera epidemic
Pieter: or am I revealing my ignorance?
Carmon: yes, although i think that mostly referred to a political party during the French revolution...they had fond feelings for that time
kate has left this chat.
Pieter: "...the name of Jacobins had been popularly applied to all promulgators of extreme revolutionary opinions."
Pieter: did we run her off?
Carmon: so there was a lot of uncertainty in Paris...can you imagine living with that kind of fear of your life being turned upside down?
Pieter: no.
Pieter: we lost Kate.
Carmon: i wonder what happened to her?
Pieter: I dunno.
Pieter: brb.
Pieter has left this chat.
7:25 PM
Pieter has joined this chat.
Pieter: of course I'm here. how else could I tell you to reinvite me?
Pieter: what happened to Kate.
Carmon: her computer dropped its connection
Pieter: ah. she needs a Mac.
Carmon: everyone does
Pieter: that's not true. only people who don't have Macs need Macs.
7:30 PM
Kate Nickelby: Sigh...
Carmon: yay! she's back!
Kate Nickelby: Thank you for calling to check on me!
Carmon: did you get all the stuff about the history?
Pieter: welcome back.
Carmon: the gist is that there was no stability or certainty of anything
Kate Nickelby: I blanked out right when Pieter shared that he couldn't get any of the politics
Kate Nickelby: And thank you
Kate Nickelby: Was that about it?
Pieter: how come in the Les Mis musical they call Marius a Don soft-g sound Juan?
Carmon: ok, i will send it to you later...
Pieter: isn't it Don Wan?
Carmon: i haven't listened to it, i don't know
Kate Nickelby: Maybe they meant Don Jon?
Pieter: it's your CD.
Kate Nickelby: Like from Shakespeare?
Pieter: oh. I don't know about that one...
Pieter: I was thinking of Don Juan...
Carmon: so what do you like about him, Pieter?
Pieter: but yeah, that would make more sense, I suppose.
Pieter: me?
Pieter: I like his confusion.
Carmon: you
Kate Nickelby: Yes, what do you like about him?
Pieter: I like...
Pieter: his idealism about Bonapartism, even though he was disillusioned about that.
Kate Nickelby: Buonaparte!
Carmon: do you see him as a man with principles? is that why you like him?
Pieter: right, right.
Pieter: well...
Kate Nickelby: He *does* have principles...
Pieter: I see him as a man who wants to have principles...he really, really wants something he can believe in.
Pieter: of course, it depends on what you mean by principles.
Carmon: i think we are watching him mature
Pieter: I'm thinking about political principles, mostly.
Carmon: standards, loyalties
Pieter: but yes, we are watching him mature, which is what I like about him.
Kate Nickelby: Right now, his main loyalty seems to be with his father
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: But gradually with Cosette
Pieter: another thing I like is that his loyalty to his father has stayed true all this time...
Carmon: not just political...he has ideals that he tries to live up to...but so do others in this story, and they are sometimes misguided, leading to suffering
Pieter: true.
7:35 PM
Kate Nickelby: Who else?
Kate Nickelby: Javert?
Kate Nickelby: Eponine?
Pieter: well, we've mentioned it before...
Pieter: Javert has principles...
Pieter: he's doing the very best job he can...
Pieter: which is good.
Carmon: yes, he is loyal to the law, but legalistically
Kate Nickelby: But we haven't mentioned E.!
Pieter: he just...is kinda twisting it.
Pieter: I don't like Eponine.
Carmon: he hasn't got a heart, or he suppresses it
Pieter: right.
Carmon: i like eponine the best
Kate Nickelby: Really?
Pieter: and I think he suppresses it because he doesn't think it's right to give in to it.
Pieter: why, Mom?
Kate Nickelby: Is it because her love is sacrificial?
Kate Nickelby: I felt *very* sorry for her
Carmon: yes, i feel very sorry for her, and she rises above her horrible suffering life to try to do good, but she is definitely misguided in her loyalties and principles
Carmon: remember when she threw marius's money on the ground?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon: think of how different she is from her parents
Pieter: yes.
Kate Nickelby: In a way, she is rather like her brother
Kate Nickelby: I really liked Gavroche
Carmon: yes, i like gavroche a lot, too...tell me about him
Pieter: I liked Gavroche with the two little boys...
Kate Nickelby: He was very tender-hearted, in spite of his upbringing
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: He was loyal and brave...
Carmon: did you notice how wise he was, too?
Kate Nickelby: He was a dutiful son
Pieter: I especially liked the dialogue where he's with the little boys in the elephant and the rats are there.
Kate Nickelby: He was wise, yes
Kate Nickelby: Oh that was my favorite part!
Carmon: that was one of my favorite parts, Pieter
Pieter: rats are like mice.
Carmon: i was shuddering thinking of those rats and the poor little boys
Pieter: yeah...
Carmon: how matter-of-fact he was about his cat getting eaten
Pieter: it was amusing the way he just brushed it off, though. took it in stride.
Kate Nickelby: And telling about how they call them "digs" and "Devil's pit"
Pieter: right. although I don't know if I believed him about the cat.
Carmon: that was part of the argot
Pieter: I didn't read the argot.
Carmon: oh, i'm sure that could happen
Carmon: the cat, i mean
Kate Nickelby: Neither did I
Carmon: also, the way he held his little brother's hand was so sad
Pieter: sure. it could. but I still thought it sounded a little like he was elaborating on the truth.
7:40 PM
Carmon: that many rats would eat a cat
Kate Nickelby: He was just yarning to his audience!
Carmon: i wonder how many gamins lived in paris at that time?
Kate Nickelby: Give him a break!
Carmon: who, Pieter?
Kate Nickelby: It sounded like a lot
Pieter: Kate, what's your smiley face on your away message? what type of face is that?
Pieter: right. they would. they could. but I thought he was telling a yarn. I just got that impression.
Carmon: i can imagine that life would be hard for them, it doesn't sound like there was much for christian charity
Pieter: remind me what gamins are.
Carmon: the homeless boys
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: No...not with things in the constant turmoil they seemed to be in
Carmon: i didn't like cosette
Kate Nickelby: No?
Kate Nickelby: She seemed to fall into the same category for me as Marius
Carmon: she seemed shallow to me, and i'm not sure i understand marius's strong feelings for her
Pieter: well...
Pieter: is it that she's shallow.
Kate Nickelby: I think that her looks had something to do with it, he just wouldn't admit it to himself
Pieter: or is that she's not as fleshed out a character as some others?
Carmon: i think he was a deeper person...she seemed too concerned with her appearance and not really grateful for all Jean had done for her
Pieter: true, Kate.
Carmon: maybe she will be more complex in the next section
Pieter: I don't know about not grateful...she did seem to love him. but yes, she was vain.
Kate Nickelby: Well, I don't think she realized the sacrifices he had made for her completely
Carmon: she did have a closeness to him, and took care of him when he was hurt...
Kate Nickelby: She didn't know about his former life and how the police were hounding him...
Carmon: but she seems spoiled...that was partly Jean's fault for the way he treated her...overprotected
Kate Nickelby: She is selfish
Pieter: right.
Pieter: but then, it would be hard for her not to be selfish because...
Carmon: i think the book tries to make the point that her life has not been all good because of it, and that she is lacking something
Pieter: she was raised with very little companionship besides Jean Valjean...
7:45 PM
Kate Nickelby: What is she lacking?
Pieter: there was no one, really, for her to be unselfish towards.
Pieter: she was raised almost as an only person.
Carmon: she was in the convent, but Hugo shows that led her to have a skewed vision of reality
Carmon: she seems shallow, not understanding the deeper issues of the world or comprehending the suffering around her
Kate Nickelby: Compare her to Eponine
Kate Nickelby: For instance
Carmon: eponine started out spoiled, the opposite of cosette at the time, but she descended into poverty because of her family...
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: And turned noble, somewhat?
Kate Nickelby: In a way, they switched places
Carmon: yet she understands much, and she seems to struggle against some of the evil around her
Carmon: yes
Kate Nickelby: And it is interesting that they both loved Marius
Pieter: I feel somewhat sorry for Eponine...loving Marius, and yet he ignored her.
Carmon: although her loyalty was misguided, all wrapped up in Marius to the point that she wanted to lead him to his death so Cosette couldn't have him, then sacrificed herself at the last minute...
Kate Nickelby: That was another thing I didn't like about Marius...he seemed too hard-hearted toward her
Pieter: right, Kate.
Kate Nickelby: He didn't even seem to have common mercy toward her
Carmon: yes, his emotions toward cosette are a bit too much
Pieter: a bit obsessive.
Carmon: he did go away from eponine to read his letter
Kate Nickelby: Obsessive! I should say so! Remember when her ankle showed in public?
Pieter: yeah...
Carmon: he had romantic ideals about her, seeing her as almost not of this world
Pieter: I mean...I know why he felt that way then...but it was obsessive, and unreasonable, albeit understandable.
Carmon: how about his grandfather, though?
Kate Nickelby: He's doomed to be disillusioned at the end
7:50 PM
Carmon: tell me about his struggles
Kate Nickelby: His grandfather's?
Carmon: yes
Kate Nickelby: Well, he had built all his hopes up around Marius...
Carmon: what kind of a man was he? do you think marius was reacting against that?
Pieter: I liked "there are fathers who do not love their sons, but there has never been a grandfather who did not adore his grandson."
Kate Nickelby: Against his lewd life? Against his obsessive royalist tendencies?
Pieter: I think it was more his grandfather who was reacting...
Carmon: i think that the grandfather's adoration was totally selfish, though
Pieter: he was reacting against change.
Pieter: true.
Carmon: i think marius was a contrast to his decaying grandfather...decaying in his morals and his intellect
Kate Nickelby: I thought that was terrible how his g'father kept him from his true father
Carmon: how about how his grandfather sent away his own two children?
Kate Nickelby: That was terrible!
Carmon: do you remember that he had two children with Magnon?
Carmon: then he sent them away with a monthly stipend
Kate Nickelby: Do they show up later in the story?
Carmon: it says they died, then she took in the Thenardiers' youngest boys as replacements
Carmon: do you know about rousseau?
Kate Nickelby: That's right
Kate Nickelby: Vaguely
Pieter: I know as much as Kate.
Carmon: he was one of the main enlightenment philosophers...still influential
Pieter: I think I remember Rushdoony talking about Rousseau living a really perverted life.
Carmon: he was the one who said man was a noble savage
7:55 PM
Carmon: he was very immoral, he fathered many children out of wedlock and refused to take care of any of them
Pieter: ok.
Carmon: let me type something that rc, jr. wrote about the enlightenment...
Kate Nickelby: ok
Carmon: i think it will "shed some light" on the thinking of the time, and hugo's ideas, too...
Carmon: "The Enlightenment was perfectionistic. It taught that with the right sociological techniques, the right educational methods...
Pieter: (did you see Josh can make it after the first week of May, Mom?)
Carmon: the right exercise of political power, and the right harnessing of machines, we can have heaven on earth. We have the minds and the will to do it, and so we can."
Pieter: sounds like what a lot of people STILL believe.
Kate Nickelby: Sounds like what Hugo has been writing about....
Carmon: did you notice all the comments in the book about how learning, knowledge and education will eventually make everything better
Kate Nickelby: That man's goodness or depravity depends on his situation
Pieter: yeah...
Kate Nickelby: So is Marius a picture of the highly educated saviour?
Carmon: that's a good question...or at least it may save him...but what about the ABC?
Kate Nickelby: THAT especially
Carmon: i think that hugo thought progress would eventually usher in a utopia
Carmon: Kate, go to page 999
Kate Nickelby: Yes
8:00 PM
Carmon: Pieter, it's chapter iv in the argot section
Pieter: ok.
Carmon: Toward the bottom of the page: "All progress tends toward the solution. Someday we will be surprised...
Kate Nickelby: yes
Carmon: With the human race rising, the lower strata will quite naturally leave the zone of distress. The abolition of misery will be brought about by a simple elevation of level."
Kate Nickelby: "In saying no to progress, it is not the future they condemn, but themselves"
Carmon: do you suppose he was influenced by darwinian thought?
Kate Nickelby: Ahhhh... I didn't think of that!
Carmon: that was the stepchild of enlightenment thought...the transcendentalists in america were teaching something similar at the same time...
Pieter: well, that human race rising and misery being abolished...
Carmon: they had gotten a lot of their ideas from europe
Kate Nickelby: And with the idea of the soul being all-important
Pieter: if the human race rises, then misery will merely be set at a new level...it won't disapppear.
Pieter: *disappear.
Carmon: there are several utopian ideas discussed in this book, some are criticized
Kate Nickelby: Like that section on socialism at pg.840
Carmon: we know that, as good calvinists...only God can erase misery, through Jesus Christ...
Carmon: yes, i noticed his tirade against socialism
Pieter: who's we?
Carmon: i found that interesting, considering how socialistic france is now
Pieter: at least he was against it.
Kate Nickelby: That's not saying much, but I suppose so
Carmon: yet they celebrate the republican ideals of the french revolution
8:05 PM
Kate Nickelby: Go figure
Carmon: it sounds like he supported the republican ideals, but thought that it wouldn't work until education was universal and the proper time had come
Kate Nickelby: I kept being confused by what solution he was actually supporting
Carmon: in the intro to the book, it says that hugo angered almost every group because they all thought he was picking on them
Kate Nickelby: I can understand!
Kate Nickelby: Sometimes he picks on Bonapartists
Carmon: what do you think of m. mabeuf?
Kate Nickelby: Is he the priest who told Marius about his father?
Pieter: I'm still here, just not saying much...you haven't lost me, in case you were wondering.
Carmon: yes
Pieter: no. he wasn't a priest.
Carmon: he was an abbe
Kate Nickelby: Augh!! I've forgotten!
Kate Nickelby: Oh
Kate Nickelby: Well, that's what I meant
Carmon: he died at the barricade...he loved books
Pieter: he spent time at the church...I don't think he was a priest.
Pieter: what's an abbe?
Kate Nickelby: Was he the guy that Gavroche gave his money to?
Carmon: i'm not sure...perhaps it was a "civilian" worker in the church
Carmon: yes
Pieter: I liked the bit about how he never went out without a book, and often came home with two.
Carmon: he told marius all about his father...they had been friends because of their gardens
Kate Nickelby: Yes!
Carmon: i liked that, too, Pieter
Carmon: do you remember what happened to the gardens?
Kate Nickelby: Well, I know Valjean's turned into a kind of untamed wilderness
Carmon: he had been famous for his flowers
Carmon: right now i'm talking about Pontmercy and Mabeuf
8:10 PM
Carmon: when P. died, his plants were stolen and his garden went to ruin...
Carmon: and Mabeuf became more and more poor, and became withdrawn and stopped caring for his garden...it was symbolic of his decline
Carmon: he had to sell his books, one by one
Carmon: that was sad
Kate Nickelby: Oh yes...how he would go out with a book to get dinner...
Carmon: Marius was so absorbed in his problems with Cosette, he stopped visiting him
Kate Nickelby: And sometimes come back with a different book, instead...
Pieter: yes...
Kate Nickelby: That was another thing I didn't like about Marius...
Kate Nickelby: I thought Thernardier was especially slimy in these sections
Carmon: i think, right now, maybe he and cosette deserve each other
Kate Nickelby: Well said!
Carmon: yes, he was irredeemable
Kate Nickelby: on pg. 788...
Carmon: i was hoping he would fall off the prison walls
Kate Nickelby: The simile there of the boa constrictor looking at his prey was priceless
Kate Nickelby: Also on pg. 747...of him as a vulture
Carmon: Birds!
Pieter: yeah.
Kate Nickelby: And on the prison wall, after Gavroche was so sacrificing...
Carmon: Shall we talk about themes...i have a lot to discuss about them
Kate Nickelby: "Well, I don't know, but it seems to me it's your son."
Carmon: marius was kind of the same way about eponine...self-absorbed
Carmon: ignoring the sacrifices made
Kate Nickelby: You mean like Thernardier to Gavroche?
Kate Nickelby: Ouch
Carmon: yes
Pieter: completely indifferent, yeah.
Carmon: but i have hopes for him
8:15 PM
Carmon: birds
Kate Nickelby: Interesting that Eponine and Gavroche were siblings
Kate Nickelby: Sorry, yes, themes...
Carmon: remember all the references we noticed last time?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Kate Nickelby: I noted some down this time
Carmon: tell me some
Kate Nickelby: pg 565. gamins as sparrows
Kate Nickelby: I mean 575
Carmon: yes, and that one was repeated other places...
Carmon: think about how sparrows are noisy and congregate together...they are busy little birds
Kate Nickelby: Pg 581-582
Carmon: there was a man in the abc with a bird name...
Carmon: he was bald...
Kate Nickelby: Laigle?
Carmon: yes...the eagle...and they were referred to as a flock of young men
Carmon: what did cosette turn into?
Kate Nickelby: A bird of prey?
Carmon: noooo....
Kate Nickelby: Or a peacock?
Carmon: noooo....
Kate Nickelby: Sorry
Carmon: what did marius think of her when he first saw her?
Pieter: don't look at ME!
Kate Nickelby: Just a minute!
Carmon: was it love at first sight?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon: nope
Kate Nickelby: Oh, no!
Carmon: remember when i said it was love at third sight?
Kate Nickelby: That's right: "He found the girl rather depressing"
Carmon:
Pieter: right.
8:20 PM
Carmon: she was not very attractive then...remember the part about when she noticed she was pretty?
Carmon: what kind of bird does that remind you of?
Pieter: a swan?
Carmon: Pieter wins a prize!
Kate Nickelby: What page?
Carmon: look at 705 Kate
Pieter: what's the prize?
Kate Nickelby: Very good Pieter!
Carmon: Book six, section iv
Pieter: well...yeah, I got it with a lot of heavy-handed hints.
Pieter: btw, something else about Marius...
Carmon: what kind of bird is marius looking at at the Luxembourg?
Kate Nickelby: You mean that he was contemplating the swans?
Pieter: I liked the way when he fell in love with Cosette...
Carmon: yes...then he fell hard for Cosette
Pieter: and then he's walking with Coureyfrac, or whatever he was called, and refuses to ogle a girl...
Pieter: although he did end up obsessing about Cosette...
Carmon: yes, he is a loyal soul
Pieter: I liked his fidelity...even though he only knows her by sight.
Carmon: there are more references to birds, but lets talk about prisons now
Kate Nickelby: I'm sorry we were so dense for that one!
Carmon: that's ok...i was looking pretty hard
Carmon: prisons...go a couple of sections further about marius...what's it called?
Carmon: section vi
Kate Nickelby: Patron Minette
Carmon: too far...page 709
Kate Nickelby: What's what called?
Kate Nickelby: "Taken Prisoner"
Carmon: the section title...about marius
Carmon: yup
Carmon: his love had made him a prisoner
Kate Nickelby: So he was captured by Cosette
8:25 PM
Carmon: maybe, or maybe by his emotions
Kate Nickelby: Probably the latter
Carmon: can you think of other prisons in the story?
Kate Nickelby: Since he didn't know anything about her but what he made up
Carmon: even her name...ursula
Pieter: right...
Kate Nickelby: Well, the Jondrette's home was a prison for Jean for a while
Carmon: yes, and for some of the family members, as well
Kate Nickelby: And there was the actual prison where Jondrette and his compatriots were kept
Kate Nickelby: And in a way, Jean's cabin was a prison
Carmon: yes, with the dramatic escape
Carmon: yes...the isolation and the constant fear of discovery...and cosette not allowed to leave...remember the grating in the garden, like bars?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Kate Nickelby: And the barricade near the end of Section 4...they couldn't get out
Pieter: not very good bars, though. Marius could squeeze through them.
Carmon: here's a passage about jean, when he senses a distance growing with cosette...
Carmon: that's a good one, Kate...i hadn't thought of that
Carmon: jean..."he had his face turned toward the road, and his back toward the light; he had forgotten the sun, which was just rising...
Kate Nickelby: pg 901?
Carmon: he had fallen into one of those deep meditations that absorb the whole mind, and even imprison the senses, an equivalent to four walls." page 906
Carmon: book two, section viii
Kate Nickelby: And then they see the prisoners
Kate Nickelby: "And where are they going?"
Kate Nickelby: "to prison."
8:30 PM
Kate Nickelby: "Father, are they still men?"
Carmon: notice how intrigued cosette was...how deeply that affected her
Kate Nickelby: "Sometimes," said the man of misery.
Carmon: m. mabeuf's poverty seemed like a prison
Kate Nickelby: Aha! pg. 913. calls Cosette a "swan"
Carmon: this book has a lot of layers
Carmon: turn to 985
Carmon: near the end of part i of the argot section
Kate Nickelby: "The earth is not without resemblance to a jail."
Carmon: yes...it's almost as if he sees God as arbitrary
Carmon: there is one theme which was repeated constantly in this section...did you notice it?
Kate Nickelby: This whole book seems to be a constant cry to God asking "Why?"
Kate Nickelby: Or at least a cry...maybe not to God
Carmon: yes...that relates to the theme which i noticed...the contrast of light and darkness, over and over
Kate Nickelby: Because Hugo so far has not gotten the answer
Carmon: but light is not always good, and darkness is not always bad
Kate Nickelby: Does he acknowledge that?
Carmon: it is evident in different circumstances...for example, the darkness in the Jondrettes' room helps Jean escape
Kate Nickelby: The chapter about Cosette and Marius together talking is called "Sunshine"
Pieter: I have something to say.
8:35 PM
Carmon: talk
Pieter: ok...
Kate Nickelby: You're still there!
Pieter: looking back at what Jamie and I talked about when we discussed Les Mis WITHOUT you two...
Kate Nickelby: Speak on
Kate Nickelby: Oh thanks a lot
Pieter: she says...."the Friends of the ABC is a pun."
Pieter: do either of you know why?
Carmon: enlighten us
Kate Nickelby: no
Pieter: I do...now.
Pieter: ok.
Pieter: she says that in French ABC is pronounced ah-bay-say...
Carmon: german, too
Pieter: which is just like the French word "abaisse"...
Carmon: a is ay
Pieter: which means abased.
Pieter: she says...
Pieter: "the abased are the people...so they're saying they're the friends of the people."
Pieter: The Friends of the People Society.
Carmon: perhaps the pun is also intended to say that they are themselves abased...
Kate Nickelby: *Very* interesting!
Carmon: because of their excesses and their decadence in their personal lives
Carmon: thank you for the insight...
Pieter: you're welcome to give me credit for coming up with that bit about the pun.
Kate Nickelby: They reminded me of Thalomyes in the first section
Pieter: also...
Pieter: Jamie said that Joly...
Carmon: i'll give Jamie credit...yes, the hubris of the students in both sections is interesting
Pieter: the ABC call him "Jolllly," with four L's...
Kate Nickelby: Where?
Kate Nickelby: I don't remember seeing that
Pieter: one of his friends said to him "you can fly upon four L's." L's is "ailes," which means wings.
Pieter: *I* dunno. ask Jamie.
Kate Nickelby: alright, alright
Pieter: I'm just telling you what she said.
8:40 PM
Carmon: like ailerons, on a plane
Pieter: right.
Kate Nickelby: *My* book had a footnote
Carmon: ok, can we talk about light/darkness now?
Carmon: ok...tell us about it
Kate Nickelby: please
Carmon: pretty please
Kate Nickelby: Oh, about the footnote?
Carmon: yes
Carmon:
Kate Nickelby: It just translated "ailes" for me, that's all
Carmon: ok
Carmon: p. 587...the section about marius
Kate Nickelby: Got it
Carmon: book one, section x
Carmon: "light makes whole. light enlightens. all the generous sunrays of society spring from science, letters, the arts, and education...
Carmon: make men, make men. give them light, so they can give you warmth
Carmon: when marius was changing his views from his father's bonapartism, to the radical republican view of his buddies...
Kate Nickelby: So he is referring to Marius' "enlightenment"
Kate Nickelby: So it was gradual...royalist to bonapartist to revolutionist
8:45 PM
Carmon: it said he was in a twilight..."to be between two religions, one you have not yet abandoned and another you have not yet adopted is intolerable; this twilight is pleasant only to batlike souls."
Carmon: yes...progressing
Kate Nickelby: On pg 592
Kate Nickelby: "Fiat Lux!"
Pieter: I remember that bit, but I don't think mine had the "batlike souls" bit...
Kate Nickelby: Doesn't that mean Light Rules?
Carmon: remember the part i mentioned about jean turning his back on the light, away from the sun, just before the prisoners came?
Kate Nickelby: Or something along those lines?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon: the fiat lux page talks about blazing and dawn, too
Carmon: lots of metaphors like that throughout
Kate Nickelby: So Marius' sun was rising
Carmon: when the prisoners came, though, the light was not good
Carmon: "lit up, this group was still dark."
Carmon: yes, that's a good analogy about marius
Carmon: the darkness hid the prisoners who were trying to escape before the sunrise
Kate Nickelby: pg. 1095
Carmon: the candles?
Kate Nickelby: Grantaire slipping into night
Kate Nickelby: The 3 shades of night
Kate Nickelby: Getting darker and darker
Pieter: I was a little confused...
Carmon: yes...and the candles are the last feeble hold on the light
Pieter: in the part where Enjolras is dispatching people on missions...
Carmon: kind of like the little candle in Gavroche's elephant
Carmon: yes?
Pieter: and Grantaire volunteers to go out...
8:50 PM
Kate Nickelby: Oh yes!
Pieter: and then Enjolras finds him playing dominoes. what was THAT about?
Kate Nickelby: It means that Grantaire was not sufficiently motivated
Kate Nickelby: He had let down Enjolras just when E. was finally ready to trust him with something
Pieter: right. what was strange, though, was that Grantaire was pushing Enjolras to let him do this for him.
Carmon: and he later passed out, drunk, when they were ready for their great mission
Kate Nickelby: Because he had no inner purpose to accomplish...
Kate Nickelby: He was spurred on by his admiration of Enjolras...
Carmon: i think he is symbolic of something, but i'm too tired to figure it out right now...his puppy dog loyalty, but his inability to carry through
Kate Nickelby: But that wasn't enough to sustain him
Kate Nickelby: sorry you're tired
Pieter: right. I just thought it was strange that he let Enjolras down after pushing him so hard for an assignment.
Carmon: he didn't have the same fire lit in him...just a devotion to a person
Pieter: ok.
Kate Nickelby: Compare him to M. Mabeuf at his death
Carmon: maybe symbolic of the depravity of the students who have all sorts of high ideals which end up leading to suffering
Kate Nickelby: pg. 1118. "Marius Enters the Shadow"
Carmon: i think m. mabeuf committed suicide...
Kate Nickelby: Because he had nothing left to live for?
Kate Nickelby: All the students seemed to think he had done a noble deed
Carmon: he was also devoted to something which may have been shallow, and he became disillusioned
Carmon: do you think it was noble?
Carmon: i think he and javert are alike
Kate Nickelby: I think it was stupid
Kate Nickelby: But then, I didn't really get the point of all the rioting in the streets
8:55 PM
Carmon: it was sparked by the death of some military hero...
Kate Nickelby: I have in my notes, "What is it with France and revolutions?"
Carmon: but remember all the preparations ahead of time, people whispering and gathering weapons?
Pieter: it's just in our blood, Kate.
Pieter: yes?
Kate Nickelby: Oh...right...
Carmon: cholera, poverty, enlightenment philosophy...very complex
Carmon: there is a city in france named after my mother's ancestors
Kate Nickelby: Really?
Carmon: nevers
Kate Nickelby: interesting!
Carmon: i'm just going to mention a couple more themes, for you guys to keep in mind reading the last section
Carmon: noble poverty contrasted with sordid poverty
Kate Nickelby: Mabeuf vs. Thernardier
Carmon: yes, and marius who refused to go into debt
Carmon: as he became shabbier
Carmon: gardens are still a big theme
Carmon: family relationships which become disrupted...children being given away
Carmon: work and labor contrasted with indolence
Carmon: think about the abc...they were very indolent in their habits
Kate Nickelby: And Marius after he fell in love with Cosette was very indolent
Carmon: also jean's speech to the thief who was going to rob him in the garden, with mabeuf nearby
Carmon: yes, and it caused him problems
Carmon: there are many times that microscopic is contrasted with telescopic
9:00 PM
Kate Nickelby: gamin vs. Paris
Carmon: yes...a closeup view of the city vs. a bird's eye view
Carmon: read p. 886 for more on this, too...
Kate Nickelby: General discussion of Argot vs. Ternardier and Co. using it
Carmon: true love is called "infinitely great and infinitely small"
Carmon: see if you can notice more of these things in the next section
Kate Nickelby: Thanks for the heads up
Part Four
Carmon Friedrich: ok, we've picked on pieter enough, let's talk about the book
Kate Nickelby: Sorry Pieter...no hard feelings?
Carmon Friedrich: how long ago did you finish it, kate?
pieterfriedrich: I'm not talking to either of you anymore.
Kate Nickelby: About two weeks ago
Kate Nickelby: And it was a very rewarding feeling
Carmon Friedrich: i'm really glad i stuck with it...it is a great book
Kate Nickelby: I decided I like Jean best of all the characters
Kate Nickelby: I kind of had that feeling all along, but the end clinched it
Carmon Friedrich: me, too...i was really sad a the end
Carmon Friedrich: aat
Carmon Friedrich: at
Carmon Friedrich: why don't you guys tell me which characters you liked and why...just a sentence
Kate Nickelby: Go ahead Pieter...
pieterfriedrich: I kinda like Jean...
7:10 PM
pieterfriedrich: I liked the way he let Javert go and was willing to go with him.
pieterfriedrich: mmm...
Kate Nickelby: That was a great part!
Carmon Friedrich: how about you, kate, what did you like about him?
pieterfriedrich: I liked Marius, still.
Kate Nickelby: He wasn't bitter after Bienvenu
pieterfriedrich: and I liked Grantaire, at the end.
pieterfriedrich: no.
Kate Nickelby: He never sought revenge
Kate Nickelby: He was so gentle, yet so manly and protecting
Carmon Friedrich: he was also willing to admit when he was wrong
Kate Nickelby: Yes!
Carmon Friedrich: what about cosette?
Kate Nickelby: I was thoroughly disgusted with her
Carmon Friedrich: really?
Carmon Friedrich: marius and jean saw her as one of the reasons for living
Kate Nickelby: When she was talking to Marius and Jean after her wedding night, I found her extremely annoying
pieterfriedrich: I can't say I have an opinion one way or the other.
Kate Nickelby: They did, but I think they over-valued her
Carmon Friedrich: i dunno...i could relate to her wanting to stay after she had just gotten married, she didn't know the seriousness of everything that was happening
Kate Nickelby: She was too naive
Carmon Friedrich: remember how sheltered her upbringing had been, after she left the thenardiers
Kate Nickelby: I don't mind her not understanding everything, but I think she should have been less selfish
Kate Nickelby: Although, it did say that Marius and his desires were everything to her
Carmon Friedrich: i think the author also saw her as selfish, but that it was a normal kind of selfishness that was part of youth and love
pieterfriedrich: like I said previously...
pieterfriedrich: I think some of the selfishness came from being an only child...
Carmon Friedrich: and she was very tender with jean while living with him
Kate Nickelby: So it was just natural depravity
pieterfriedrich: and being raised so independently of everything...
pieterfriedrich: with no one else around her.
7:15 PM
Carmon Friedrich: there were some interesting things about cosette in this story...
Kate Nickelby: Those things would have an effect...
Carmon Friedrich: she was a symbol of many of the major themes of the book...
Carmon Friedrich: she symbolized the utopian ideal with her beauty and purity
Carmon Friedrich: can you think of any other ways she was a symbol?
Kate Nickelby: She was one of the les miserables, but she was, so to speak, raised to life by Jean
Kate Nickelby: Showing that improvement was possible
Carmon Friedrich: ok, she was redeemed then?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon Friedrich: she symbolizes hope for the others who were the miserable ones?
pieterfriedrich: she was one of the "les miserables"? mind expounding on that?
Kate Nickelby: Marius, for instance
Kate Nickelby: Ack! Searching my notes...
Carmon Friedrich: she was in a hopeless situation with her background and her life with the thenardiers
Kate Nickelby: Page 744
Carmon Friedrich: she could have ended up like eponnine, but for the grace of God
pieterfriedrich: who are the "les miserables"?
Carmon Friedrich: "there is a point when the unfortunate...
pieterfriedrich: does that mean "the miserable"?
Kate Nickelby: "There is a point where the unfortunate and the infamous are associated and confused in a word, a mortal word, les miserables."
Kate Nickelby: I believe so
Carmon Friedrich: and the infamous are associated and confused in a word, a mortal word, les miserables
7:20 PM
Carmon Friedrich: yes...referring to those who suffer because of poverty, circumstance, war...
Kate Nickelby: Anything that drags them into the lower part of society
Carmon Friedrich: cosette had a nickname...
Kate Nickelby: Little sparrow, wasn't it?
Carmon Friedrich: ???
Kate Nickelby: I mean lark
Kate Nickelby: sorry
Carmon Friedrich: yes...why do you suppose birds are mentioned so often, and i will talk about them more in awhile?
pieterfriedrich: right, lark.
Carmon Friedrich: hmmm?
Kate Nickelby: Because they can fly upward from the earth, just like Hugo wanted the miserable ones to?
Carmon Friedrich: yes...remember when they were stuck in the sewer and jean couldn't find his way out?
Kate Nickelby: Yes...
Carmon Friedrich: do you remember what he heard at nightfall?
Kate Nickelby: He knew not to go downwards
Kate Nickelby: He tried to go up
Carmon Friedrich: p. 1305
Carmon Friedrich: actually, it was after they had just gotten out of the sewer
Kate Nickelby: He heard the "airy dialogue of the nests"
Carmon Friedrich: yes...so, what do you think birds mean in this story? pieter?
pieterfriedrich: who, ME?
pieterfriedrich: I haven't the slightest.
pieterfriedrich: I'm not good with all this...
pieterfriedrich: metaphor and stuff.
pieterfriedrich:
Carmon Friedrich: hmm
Kate Nickelby: Don't they mean the hope of resurrection for the miserables?
Carmon Friedrich: remember one of the other major themes, prisons?
7:25 PM
Carmon Friedrich: i think the birds symbolize freedom and release from the suffering
pieterfriedrich: yes...
Kate Nickelby: exactly
Carmon Friedrich: and cosette epitomizes that
Carmon Friedrich: she also is a light...
Kate Nickelby: Can I agree that she epitomizes that and find her annoying still?
Carmon Friedrich: at her wedding...can you find that part...page 1373
Carmon Friedrich: hang on for a minute, kate
Kate Nickelby: ok
Kate Nickelby: Where she looks like a goddess...
Kate Nickelby: "she was radiant"
Carmon Friedrich: tell me what adjectives are used to describe her
Carmon Friedrich: yes
Carmon Friedrich: and luminous
Carmon Friedrich: pieter, wake up
Kate Nickelby: "A flashing flame to Marius" pg. 1375
pieterfriedrich: I'm here, I'm here.
Kate Nickelby: "There was the ideal, the real, the rendezvous of kiss and dream, the nuptial pillow."
Carmon Friedrich: yes...and 1410..".cosette was a light, does light need to be explained?"
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 1376, Bright illumination is the necessary attendant of great joy."
Carmon Friedrich: she is very important to this story because she shows that the miserable ones don't always have to stay that way...she shows that they can have freedom and escape the darkness
Carmon Friedrich: i got annoyed with her sometimes, but i think you shouldn't be too hard on her
7:30 PM
Kate Nickelby: Ok, thank you
Carmon Friedrich: i think she had a very giving and loving nature, but she sometimes didn't know how to react to confusing circumstances
Kate Nickelby: But it is sad when you compare her escape with the other miserables who didn't make it.
Carmon Friedrich: she was naive, but i think that hugo was idealizing her innocence
Kate Nickelby: Gavroche, Eponine, the two little Thernardier brothers
Kate Nickelby: etc.
Carmon Friedrich: i agree, and the book has a lot to say about that too...in fact, i was pleased with the message about that...
Kate Nickelby: I find that when masculine writers try to idealize a woman's innocence, the women usually come off as annoying
Carmon Friedrich: you could be right about that
pieterfriedrich: maybe it's just cause I'm a guy, but I haven't found that...
Carmon Friedrich: you didn't find cosette annoying ever?
Kate Nickelby: Ever?
pieterfriedrich: well...
pieterfriedrich: no, not really...
pieterfriedrich: I mean...
pieterfriedrich: she was a character. I'm not generally annoyed by fictional characters. I just...wasn't.
Carmon Friedrich: pieter, stop stuttering
pieterfriedrich: perhaps...
Carmon Friedrich: don't you ever get emotional over a book you read?
pieterfriedrich: the Gnostic bit of the Marius/Cosette relationship was a bit annoying...
pieterfriedrich: but other than that, no.
pieterfriedrich: sure I do.
pieterfriedrich: but...
Carmon Friedrich: i don't think it was gnostic
pieterfriedrich: well, I suppose I've been annoyed by characters before, but not too often. and not by Cosette.
Kate Nickelby: I thought things seemed to escalate a lot in the chapter about the wedding...
pieterfriedrich: sure it was. we talked about this in the last chat...
pieterfriedrich: it was at least in the second-to-last book...
Carmon Friedrich: let's talk about some of the other characters then get back to some of the other circumstances
Carmon Friedrich: what about gavroche and eponnine?
Carmon Friedrich: why was gavroche so careless of his life at the end?
7:35 PM
pieterfriedrich: well, was he ever particularly careful?
Kate Nickelby: Because he hadn't much to live for anyways?
Kate Nickelby: To him, at least
Kate Nickelby: He always struck me as rather happy-go-lucky...
Carmon Friedrich: i think before he had an instinct for self-preservation...it seemed odd that he became so careless to get the bullets
pieterfriedrich: exactly. like I said, was he ever careful?
pieterfriedrich: oh, well...
Carmon Friedrich: yes?
pieterfriedrich: nothing. I'm thinking. I don't know why.
Carmon Friedrich: do you think he was just happy-go-lucky, or do you think he really cared about the cause of the ABC?
pieterfriedrich: I think both.
Kate Nickelby: I don't know...the song he was singing when he died...
Kate Nickelby: It seemed to me to express impatience with the philosophy that everyone was debating while he and his fellows were suffering and dying
Carmon Friedrich: he was a bird, too
Carmon Friedrich: gavroche was like a shakespearean character who offers comic relief but has a lot of insight to offer
Carmon Friedrich: i don't think he saw it as a game, he was fighting for something
pieterfriedrich: well, yes...like he was blaming the death on Voltaire and Rousseau...
Kate Nickelby: I think he was glad they were finally fighting instead of theorizing
pieterfriedrich: yes.
pieterfriedrich: me too...
pieterfriedrich: the theorizing was annoying...THAT part was annoying.
Kate Nickelby: Which is why he was so eager to be among them and DOING with them
pieterfriedrich: especially Enjolras.
7:40 PM
Carmon Friedrich: i think he also saw it as fate that he should perish in such a way
Kate Nickelby: So, he didn't try to avoid it in the end, because he knew, in a way, that he was going to die?
Carmon Friedrich: his life had meaning if he fought for himself and the other miserable ones
Kate Nickelby: I see
Carmon Friedrich: when he died, he was a sparrow being hunted
pieterfriedrich: dodging bullets...
Kate Nickelby: And then when he died, he took flight
Carmon Friedrich: and he could have escaped, being a bird, but he didn't leave
Carmon Friedrich: yes
Carmon Friedrich: what did you think of marius's grandfather?
Kate Nickelby: He was funny!
Kate Nickelby: He was also kind of sad...
Carmon Friedrich: did you ever find him annoying?
pieterfriedrich: I thought it was strange the way he was talking about how he would have welcomed Marius back.
Carmon Friedrich: which time?
Kate Nickelby: I think he was trying to live his gay young days over again in Marius marriage
pieterfriedrich: when Marius was brought back to his house wounded...
Carmon Friedrich: except he had mistresses...and he seemed happy that marius was getting married at last
Kate Nickelby: Yes...I found some of his references rather lacking in taste
Carmon Friedrich: the grandfather had a lot of pride, and he needed to finally swallow it to make up with marius
pieterfriedrich: especially after he'd spent so much time complaining about Marius being a revolutionary instead of a lover.
7:45 PM
Carmon Friedrich: he was an interesting contrast to jean valjean
Kate Nickelby: VERY
Carmon Friedrich: tell me some of the ways they were different
pieterfriedrich: the grandfather was oler.
pieterfriedrich: *older
Carmon Friedrich: duh
Kate Nickelby: And livlier
Carmon Friedrich: he sure talked a lot more
Kate Nickelby: He was always dancing around and being delighted with his grandchildren's love
Carmon Friedrich: he was much more superficial
Carmon Friedrich: than jean valjean
Kate Nickelby: He was all talk and doting words...
Kate Nickelby: Jean actually did things for the young couple that mattered
pieterfriedrich: livelier? he fainted when Marius came back...Jean dragged Marius through the sewers.
Carmon Friedrich: he had love, but jean had real sacrificial love
Carmon Friedrich: bouncier, like Tigger
Kate Nickelby: I mean, personality-wise
pieterfriedrich: ah, yes.
Carmon Friedrich: what do you think of how he changed when marius returned, wounded
Kate Nickelby: I think he realized finally that it was all real, that Marius had changed past the point of return...
Kate Nickelby: And that he might have lost him for good by Marius following through on his new beliefs
Carmon Friedrich: it took a lot to get him to go more than halfway
Carmon Friedrich: do you think that the grandfather went through a kind of regeneration?
Kate Nickelby: In a way...he was certainly given a new life with Marius and Cosette
7:50 PM
Carmon Friedrich: another difference is that jean died before the grandfather who was so old
Kate Nickelby: Of course, Jean had suffered MUCH more though
Carmon Friedrich: yes, it made the point that he had aged 30 years since cosette married
Carmon Friedrich: why do you think jean went to the barricade...to change the direction of this discussion a bit?
Kate Nickelby: It was sad that he had to lose Cosette at the end, when he deserved having her love so much more than the grandfather
Kate Nickelby: Didn't he go to save Marius?
Carmon Friedrich: later that's what marius thought, but at the time, i'm not sure...
Carmon Friedrich: it seemed like he was also being so careless of his safety there, like he wanted to die
Kate Nickelby: Careless like Gavroche?
Carmon Friedrich: yes, he went straight into the bullets, heedless
pieterfriedrich: right...
Kate Nickelby: I was kind of wondering if he was hoping to just end it all...
pieterfriedrich: you mean when he fetched the mattres?
pieterfriedrich: *mattress.
Carmon Friedrich: yes, and he gave up his uniform, his ticket out...like he was planning to stay until the bitter end
Carmon Friedrich: i don't think he expected he would be able to save anyone
pieterfriedrich: right.
Kate Nickelby: But when he saw Marius fall, he was stung to try?
7:55 PM
Carmon Friedrich: it was like he couldn't help it, he was made to sacrifice himself for others, and i'm sure that his love for cosette also motivated him to try to help marius when he had the chance
Carmon Friedrich: but i don't think that's why he went there
Carmon Friedrich: why was javert there?
Kate Nickelby: Thanks for pointing out that it was like he couldn't help it...it does start to seem like that after a while...
Kate Nickelby: Javert was there as a spy
Carmon Friedrich: but he seemed resigned to and welcoming death, even before jean showed up
Kate Nickelby: Because he knew it was inevitable that they would execute him...
Kate Nickelby: And he rejoiced to die doing his duty?
Carmon Friedrich: pieter?
pieterfriedrich: no comment.
pieterfriedrich: *thinks*
Carmon Friedrich: it could be that he thought he was doing his duty...why did he commit suicide?
pieterfriedrich: I don't know.
Kate Nickelby: I just loved how astounded he was when Jean told him to go
pieterfriedrich: the suicide...
Carmon Friedrich: yes?
Kate Nickelby: Because he couldn't admit that the law was too harsh on Jean
pieterfriedrich: well, he was upset about Jean...he was upset that he was torn between taking Jean in, which would be the technically legal thing to do...
Kate Nickelby: He couldn't bear that the law wasn't perfect
pieterfriedrich: and letting Jean go, which was the merciful thing to do, especially after Jean let him go.
Kate Nickelby: That it didn't have all the answers
pieterfriedrich: yeah.
Carmon Friedrich: so it was a combination of guilt...
Carmon Friedrich: read page 1310...book X
Carmon Friedrich: return of the prodigal...
8:00 PM
Carmon Friedrich: javert like to class things categorically, each contingency had its compartment
Carmon Friedrich: but with jean, he didn't fit into a neat box
Kate Nickelby: Because he presupposed that the law he was upholding was perfect
Carmon Friedrich: that shook up javert's whole world, he couldn't function without his neat system
Kate Nickelby: And thus, he couldn't bear to live in a world he didn't understand
Carmon Friedrich: i don't know if he cared if it was perfect, it was his duty and his system, and when his emotions didn't conform anymore, he exploded
Carmon Friedrich: i think it was himself he didn't understand
pieterfriedrich: yeah...
Kate Nickelby: He didn't understand the law of God that was written on his heart...
Kate Nickelby: That was telling him he ought not to pursue Jean anymore after Jean was merciful to him
Carmon Friedrich: right, and he couldn't face living with himself, not trusting himself anymore
Carmon Friedrich: mercy didn't fit into a neat category in his heart
pieterfriedrich: he was too confirmed a humanist to live without his humanism.
Carmon Friedrich: maybe...although the enlightenment philosophy in this book is so strong, that i'm not sure that's quite it...
pieterfriedrich: enlightenment is COUNTER to humanism?
Carmon Friedrich: hugo seemed to have a high view of people to be intrinsically good, but that their circumstances or fate caused them to become evil...
Carmon Friedrich: no, it is humanism...
8:05 PM
pieterfriedrich: well then why did you tell me maybe?
Carmon Friedrich: because i think hugo struggled with his humanist ideals and the idea that God is directing our lives and intimately involved
Kate Nickelby: How does this say anything more about Javert than what we've said already?
Carmon Friedrich: he seems to be having a titanic struggle over it, kind of like the struggles jean had
Carmon Friedrich: that it wasn't his humanism failing him, necessarily, unless that was part of hugo's letting us see that struggle between his ideals and the idea of God being involved in lives
Carmon Friedrich: is this getting too esoteric?
Kate Nickelby: I don't quite follow...sorry
pieterfriedrich: well...yeah, maybe.
Carmon Friedrich: ok, let's back up a bit...
Carmon Friedrich: first, do you think hugo is defending revolutions in this book...that they are capable of righting wrongs?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon Friedrich: give me an example
Kate Nickelby: I think he says that it depends on the circumstances
Kate Nickelby: And the motives
pieterfriedrich: I can't think of an example...
Kate Nickelby: He seemed to be advocating the revolution at the end with Enjolras
pieterfriedrich: I think there's just a general feeling that yes, he does think revolutions are appropriate.
pieterfriedrich: right.
Kate Nickelby: Yet, I think he condemned the revolution of '73
Kate Nickelby: I mean '93
pieterfriedrich: he condemned it as overkill...as taken too far.
Kate Nickelby: And there was that whole chapter about riots and revolutions and the difference
pieterfriedrich: but I don't think he completely condemned it.
8:10 PM
Kate Nickelby: True...he did say that it started with good intentions
Carmon Friedrich: Didn't it seem that the people who started the later revolutions also did it in the same spirit and with the inspiration of the one in 1793?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 1200. "We must do what we must."
Carmon Friedrich: Page 1238: "they give their life as a pure gift for progress; they accomplish the will of Providence...they perform a religious act."
Kate Nickelby: And I say, Must they indeed?
Carmon Friedrich: it almost seems like he is trying to decide what he thinks about revolutions...that if they have the support of the populace, and if they accomplish good, then they are good, but that you can't tell when your are in the middle of it
Kate Nickelby: So, do you think it was good for Enjolras and Grantaire and Marius and the rest to join in this one?
Carmon Friedrich: "it seems as though utopia had lost faith in the radiation of light, her irresistable and incorruptible strength...
pieterfriedrich: think it was good as in think it was justified?
Kate Nickelby: Yes
pieterfriedrich: no.
pieterfriedrich: there were 30 or 40 of them going up against the entire army of France...
Carmon Friedrich: she strikes with the sword. btu no sword is simple. every blade has two edges; he who wounds with one wounds himself with the other
pieterfriedrich: I understand their frustration...
pieterfriedrich: but their revolution was, well, stupid.
Kate Nickelby: I couldn't believe how the men wanted to die like that when they knew it wouldn't accomplish anything
Carmon Friedrich: i don't think he saw it as justified, because it didn't work...i think he felt sympathy for their cause, but also contempt
Carmon Friedrich: they hoped their deaths would inspire others
Kate Nickelby: He does seem contemptuous of Enjolras in spots
8:15 PM
pieterfriedrich: exactly, Kate. the wanting to die bit seemed like a waste.
Kate Nickelby: But was it right for them to abandon their families like that?
pieterfriedrich: they didn't exactly become martyrs...
pieterfriedrich: no.
Kate Nickelby: Enjolras even addresses that...
Carmon Friedrich: that's why i say i think he was torn between two positions
Kate Nickelby: He tried to persuade them to leave
Kate Nickelby: "broken family" theme there
Kate Nickelby: pgl 1184
pieterfriedrich: I think it's like in the Patriot...
pieterfriedrich: the leaving of the families...
pieterfriedrich: would only be justified if it was to protect those families.
Kate Nickelby: And these guys were not exactly protecting their families
pieterfriedrich: right.
Kate Nickelby: They were actually harming them by deliberately putting their breadwinner out
pieterfriedrich: maybe fighting for some more rights...
pieterfriedrich: and a better "quality of life"...
pieterfriedrich: but not protecting their families.
Carmon Friedrich: how does the religious language he uses about revolution jive with all the talk about providence and how suffering could produce character and good and even joy?
Carmon Friedrich: if the purpose of revolution is to do away with suffering?
Kate Nickelby: Which would never work, because suffering is here to stay until the 2nd coming
Kate Nickelby: And even then there will be suffering in hell
Carmon Friedrich: yes...i thought the best part of this book was some of the observations about suffering
Kate Nickelby: *thinking*
Carmon Friedrich: page 1279...
Kate Nickelby: the sewer section?
Carmon Friedrich: Book 3, I...yes
Kate Nickelby: How does that page relate?
8:20 PM
Carmon Friedrich: "the pupil dilates in the night, and at last finds day in it, even as the soul dilates in misfortune, and at last finds God in it."
Carmon Friedrich: what does that mean?
pieterfriedrich: umm...suffering attracts a person to God...
Kate Nickelby: That God uses trials to hit us in the head with a 2-by-4 and wake us up from our own worlds and acknowledge Him
Carmon Friedrich: good analogy...a 2x4!
Kate Nickelby: To cause us to turn from our sins to Him...
Carmon Friedrich: yes!
Kate Nickelby: Or just to draw us closer in faith to Him
Carmon Friedrich: page 1375
Carmon Friedrich: jean valjean has his arm in a sling...
Kate Nickelby: "their trials were so many servants preparing their joy."
Carmon Friedrich: "to have suffered, how good it is! their grief made a halo around their happiness.
Carmon Friedrich: talking about how marius and cosette's happiness was that much greater because of their suffering
pieterfriedrich: how did the suffering affect their happiness?
Kate Nickelby: the contrast made them appreciate their happiness so much more
Carmon Friedrich: that's right
pieterfriedrich: oh, right.
Carmon Friedrich: this book is full of the idea of the way suffering can refine and elevate
Carmon Friedrich: it is something we try to avoid, but we can't...happiness is our goal, but not a good goal...
Kate Nickelby: Of course, some people are never refined and elevated...."Thernarde" comes to mind
8:25 PM
Kate Nickelby: Our own happiness is a selfish goal...
Carmon Friedrich: that's right...evil people react badly to suffering because they use it as an opportunity to exercise their selfishness
Kate Nickelby: Suffering really acts as an amplifier and an exposer of hearts...
Carmon Friedrich: and a changer of hearts
Kate Nickelby: Yes!
Carmon Friedrich: page 1428, about happiness
Carmon Friedrich: book 9, I
Carmon Friedrich: It is a terrible thing to be happy!
Kate Nickelby: "How all-sufficient we think it!"
Carmon Friedrich: yes, it is wrong to depend on happiness, to seek it out as a goal
Kate Nickelby: "Being in possession of the false aim of life, happiness, how we forget the true aim, duty!"
Carmon Friedrich: duty is mentioned many times in this section...
Kate Nickelby: But of course, to Hugo, even duty wouldn't satisfy...
Carmon Friedrich: it is something different people wrestled with...tell me who had wrestling matches
Kate Nickelby: Javert
Kate Nickelby: Jean Valjean
Kate Nickelby: Marius
Carmon Friedrich: yes...they all wrestled with duty in different ways
Kate Nickelby: Of course, those are the obvious ones
Kate Nickelby: Eponine
Kate Nickelby: Although maybe hers was more love
Kate Nickelby: Which did come with a duty, though...
Carmon Friedrich: yes
8:30 PM
Kate Nickelby: did Enjolras ever wrestle with duty?
Kate Nickelby: The only person who seemed to embrace his duty without hesitation was Gavroche
Carmon Friedrich: i think he was black and white
Carmon Friedrich: there were some who saw the world in black and white, and some who struggled with duty
Carmon Friedrich: the truly heroic seemed to struggle
Carmon Friedrich: except gavroche
Kate Nickelby: right
Kate Nickelby: But Javert wasn't truly heroice
Carmon Friedrich: i think he was a conception of hugo's humanism...basically good
Kate Nickelby: But good gone awry
Kate Nickelby: ?
Carmon Friedrich: he could have been if he had won the struggle
Kate Nickelby: I was just going to say: but he lost it!
Carmon Friedrich: there are a lot of pardoxes in this story...to find happiness, don't seek it out...
Carmon Friedrich: look at 1322...
Kate Nickelby: Jean finally stopping to visit Cosette
Carmon Friedrich: book 4, I
Kate Nickelby: I'm sorry, I was just mentioning a paradox
Carmon Friedrich: yes?
Kate Nickelby: That Jean stopped seeking Cosette out, and she and Marius both ended up coming to him and loving him
Carmon Friedrich: right
Carmon Friedrich: he pushed them away, but they drew closer in the end
8:35 PM
Kate Nickelby: Yes
Carmon Friedrich: there are several oxymorons on page 1322...which relate to the idea of paradox
pieterfriedrich: such as?
Carmon Friedrich: javert is thinking about jean, struggles with how to view him...
Carmon Friedrich: "a beneficent malefactor, a compassionate convict...
Carmon Friedrich: returning pardon for hatred...
Carmon Friedrich: infamous angel, hideous hero
pieterfriedrich: ok...
Kate Nickelby: Jean Valjean exalted
Carmon Friedrich: the next page talks about "a mysterious justice according to God going counter to justice according to men."
Carmon Friedrich: think of the contrasts between light and darkness...
Carmon Friedrich: how this story seems to be about how you must go through darkness to find light
Kate Nickelby: A paradox once again
Kate Nickelby: Death and resurrection theme
Carmon Friedrich: yes...the abyss is mentioned many times in this section...tell me where
Kate Nickelby: the sewer?
Carmon Friedrich: yes...and marius was "dead"
Kate Nickelby: Jean's struggle whether he should tell all and return to the abyss of misery?
Carmon Friedrich: just a minute...
8:40 PM
Carmon Friedrich: ok...that's another one
Carmon Friedrich: pieter?
Kate Nickelby: another one what?
Carmon Friedrich: abyess
Carmon Friedrich: abyss
Kate Nickelby: quite so
pieterfriedrich: I don't have any to offer...you guys have thought of all the ones I have.
Carmon Friedrich: the barricade was actually called an abyss
Kate Nickelby: I can believe that
Carmon Friedrich: where did cosette meet with jean after she married?
Kate Nickelby: in the downstairs room?
Carmon Friedrich: what was that like?
Kate Nickelby: like an abyss, in a way
Carmon Friedrich: yes...remember how cold and cobwebby and unfriendly it was?
Kate Nickelby: And through Thernardier only was Marius able to learn how Jean had saved him...
pieterfriedrich: yes...
Kate Nickelby: Thus, if Thernardier was a sort of abyss, it was through him Jean received his last happiness
Carmon Friedrich: what did Thenardier do before he told the truth to Marius?
pieterfriedrich: so...what's the significance of the abyss?
Kate Nickelby: He lied?
Kate Nickelby: (surprise, surprise)
Carmon Friedrich: what was he wearing?
Kate Nickelby: A black costume
Carmon Friedrich: a disguise...a mask
Kate Nickelby: That too
Carmon Friedrich: when did marius and cosette get married?
Kate Nickelby: Feb. 16
8:45 PM
Carmon Friedrich: what celebration?
Kate Nickelby: Is that significant?
Carmon Friedrich: yes
Kate Nickelby: Mardi Gras?
Carmon Friedrich: yes!
Kate Nickelby: aha!
Carmon Friedrich: people all around were wearing masks...in this story, there are a lot of disguises and false identities
Kate Nickelby: And they had to go through all that to get to the church?
Carmon Friedrich: yes, to get to their happiness...
Carmon Friedrich: what is mardi gras followed by?
Kate Nickelby: I don't know
pieterfriedrich: easter.
Kate Nickelby: Pieter, help!
pieterfriedrich: I think.
Carmon Friedrich: kate, you are so reformed...you need to think like a catholic (or lutheran)
Kate Nickelby: thanks
Carmon Friedrich: between mardi gras and easter?
pieterfriedrich: ash wednesday...good friday...
Kate Nickelby: lent
pieterfriedrich: yeah.
Carmon Friedrich: yes! what is lent for?
pieterfriedrich: lent's right.
Kate Nickelby: For giving things up and reflecting on sin
Carmon Friedrich: ash wednesday is the beginning of it...
Carmon Friedrich: for remembering Christ's suffering
Kate Nickelby: yes
Carmon Friedrich: this is important to the story...jean's torment was on ash wednesday, the beginning of lent
Kate Nickelby: Ohhhh!
Carmon Friedrich: after lent is easter, a time of resurrection, new life
pieterfriedrich: Lent is a season of soul-searching and repentance. It is a season for reflection and taking stock. Lent originated in the very earliest days of the Church as a preparatory time for Easter...
Kate Nickelby: good old dic.
pieterfriedrich: when the faithful rededicated themselves and when converts were instructed in the faith and prepared for baptism.
pieterfriedrich: By observing the forty days of Lent, the individual Christian imitates Jesus’ withdrawal into the wilderness for forty days.
Carmon Friedrich: ha
pieterfriedrich: http://www.kencollins.com/holy-04.htm
Kate Nickelby: thank you
Carmon Friedrich: ok...so now we see what was happening in the story is a picture of that need to go through the suffering to get to the joy and the new life!
pieterfriedrich: I figured I had to contribute something.
Kate Nickelby: So if Jean's torment was on Ash Wed., what happened on Easter?
Carmon Friedrich: do you see that the themes of gardens, birds, paradise, suffering, all of it is very biblical?
8:50 PM
pieterfriedrich: right.
pieterfriedrich: it all related back to Iraq.
pieterfriedrich: like the suffering part.
Carmon Friedrich: marius finally became born again, all was resolved for him, jean's purpose was fulfilled
Kate Nickelby: So Jean was the savior of the book
pieterfriedrich: what's biblical?
pieterfriedrich: the metaphors?
pieterfriedrich: or what the metaphors mean?
Carmon Friedrich: pieter, are you really saying you don't see how the themes are biblical?
Kate Nickelby: the metaphors of dying to live
Kate Nickelby: the overall theme of the book
pieterfriedrich: ok...
Carmon Friedrich: of suffering to gain true joy
pieterfriedrich: so the book was biblical?
pieterfriedrich: I thought the book was heavily influenced by enlightenment philosophy.
pieterfriedrich: which one was it?
Kate Nickelby: So Hugo couldn't help following the Biblical pattern
Kate Nickelby: Because it's true
Carmon Friedrich: yes, i think that it was, maybe against hugo's will, but he wrote a very biblical (though not perfectly) book
Carmon Friedrich: he struggled with his beliefs throughout the story, but that idea comes through very clearly
Carmon Friedrich: do you think a utopia is ever possible?
Kate Nickelby: I don't think anyone can keep from having Biblical themes to a certain extent in their writing because the world and our lives are so filled with Biblical themes
pieterfriedrich: right.
Kate Nickelby: We can't escape the way we are made
pieterfriedrich: if you don't confirm to biblicality to at least some extent...
Carmon Friedrich: there are quite a lot of bad books which try to call evil good and good evil as their premise
Kate Nickelby: We go to sleep and wake up refreshed...a death and resurrection
pieterfriedrich: then you don't connect at ALL with readers...
pieterfriedrich: you end up with a nonsense post-modern book or something.
Carmon Friedrich: or they have no premise, as pieter says, postmodern
pieterfriedrich: see. I was right.
Kate Nickelby: And I was wrong?
pieterfriedrich: of coursse.
pieterfriedrich: *course.
Kate Nickelby: So was I way off on that?
Carmon Friedrich: no....all good books will have themes and ideas that are biblical, like in greg u.'s talk about the one true story
pieterfriedrich: definitely.
pieterfriedrich: right.
Kate Nickelby: ok
8:55 PM
Kate Nickelby: That's what I thought
Carmon Friedrich: what about my utopia question?
pieterfriedrich: no.
Kate Nickelby: Are you saying, utopia as in being in heaven or utopia as in socialist?
Carmon Friedrich: are you postmillennial?
pieterfriedrich: man is sinful, and will be until the end of the world, so no.
Carmon Friedrich: but what about after that?
pieterfriedrich: yeah, sure. but I don't think the world will gradually eradicate sin...I think the world will gradually become more Christian.
Kate Nickelby: I agree with Pieter
Carmon Friedrich: and is it wrong to try to strive for a "utopia?"
pieterfriedrich: no.
Carmon Friedrich: so we should be revolutionaries?
pieterfriedrich: like I've said before, perfection is inattainable but that doesn't make it not worth trying to attain.
Kate Nickelby: No, but we need to realize we won't attain it until we are resurrected
pieterfriedrich: not necessarily. but there are different ways to go about attaining perfection.
pieterfriedrich: armed revolution is just one of them.
Kate Nickelby: I should have said, we don't attain it, Christ attains it for us, and we realize it fully when we are in heaven
Carmon Friedrich: what does God tell us? "Be ye holy as I am holy."
Carmon Friedrich: Is that a revolutionary idea?
Kate Nickelby: No!
Carmon Friedrich: really?
pieterfriedrich: it's not a new idea if that's what you mean.
Carmon Friedrich: what does the status quo tell us to do?
pieterfriedrich: and it's not a revolutionary idea in the sense that it's a strange and incredible thing.
Carmon Friedrich: i mean different from the status quo
Kate Nickelby: Oh
Kate Nickelby: Yes, because the status quo is total depravity
Carmon Friedrich: when you go to the store, when you watch tv (which i hope is seldom), what do you find there? isn't there a lot of agreement in the world about what is right and what is wrong...but it's not what we might agree with?
Carmon Friedrich: good is evil and evil is good
9:00 PM
Kate Nickelby: well yes...Romans 1 comes to mind
pieterfriedrich: well...
pieterfriedrich: there's a lot of agreement...
pieterfriedrich: with the total depravity of the status quo...
Carmon Friedrich: and when we preach the gospel to people, it creates strong emotion...it doesn't agree with what most people think
pieterfriedrich: but there's also a lot of agreement...
pieterfriedrich: with some ideas of what's right and wrong...
Carmon Friedrich: it's revolutionary
pieterfriedrich: there's still the ingrained "murder is wrong"...
pieterfriedrich: and there's agreement on that.
Kate Nickelby: But are you trying to say revolutionary as in "stumbling block"?
Carmon Friedrich: yes, God's laws are evident, but babies are murdered all the time in the womb
Carmon Friedrich: yes, and as something which is different than what the world wants
Carmon Friedrich: or thinks it needs
Carmon Friedrich: i don't mean revolutionary as going against proper authority or be an anarachist
Kate Nickelby: But as in not conforming to this world?
Carmon Friedrich: we are utopians, but not seeking perfection apart from God...yes, not conforming to the world
Kate Nickelby: I don't think I would call us "utopians" though, it has a certain connotation...
Carmon Friedrich: read the section where jean is dying...p. 1454
pieterfriedrich: yeah, utopian is a bad word to use.
Carmon Friedrich: i know, i'm not going to go door to door saying it, but i want to to understand that there is a proper view of utopia or perfection...it's heaven
pieterfriedrich: but yeah, we're utopians...but seeking utopia after this life...not here on earth.
Kate Nickelby: I'm there
pieterfriedrich: actually...
Kate Nickelby: Pg. 1454
pieterfriedrich: seeking it here on earth...
pieterfriedrich: but knowing we won't get it here on earth.
Carmon Friedrich: that's right pieter...striving for holiness, but in humility and knowing that it won't totally happen until then
9:05 PM
Kate Nickelby: Not to rush us along, or anything, but I need to get off soon...
Kate Nickelby:
Carmon Friedrich: 1454..."But we reckon without God. God said: You think you are going to be abandoned, idiot? No. No, it shall not come to pass like that."
Carmon Friedrich: ok, almost done
pieterfriedrich: I've logged my two hours. work day's over for me.
Carmon Friedrich: we reckon without God...
pieterfriedrich: wait...
pieterfriedrich: it said that in the book?
pieterfriedrich: I don't remember that part...
Carmon Friedrich: Read this poem which says the same thing, and has a message like the one of the story...
Kate Nickelby: Yes, he acknowledged that God had not forgotten him
Carmon Friedrich: http://www.bartleby.com/122/7.html
Carmon Friedrich: "God's Grandeur" by Gerard Manley Hopkins
Carmon Friedrich: "Why do men then now not reck his rod?"
Carmon Friedrich: Jean not only acknowledges that, but he knows that everything that happened was God's purpose for their lives
Kate Nickelby: And he even ties his discoveries with the black jet in to it
Carmon Friedrich: yes...even stealing the loaf of bread
Kate Nickelby: They may have seemed very minor compared to the big picture, but they all were woven into God's plan for him
Carmon Friedrich: yes
Kate Nickelby: Especially stealing the loaf of bread!
Carmon Friedrich: do you want to be finished now?
Carmon Friedrich: did you like the discussion?
Kate Nickelby: As a last light and darkness theme...
Carmon Friedrich: yes?
Kate Nickelby: I liked how there was a candle whose light fell on Jean as he died
Kate Nickelby: And the night was very dark
Kate Nickelby: A fitting end
Carmon Friedrich: yes...that theme was really strong in this section...and it was from the priest's candlesticks
Carmon Friedrich: the one who gave him the light at first
Kate Nickelby: So it tied the beginning and the end together quite nicely
