A Mess of Potter
When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God. ~Deuteronomy 18:9-13
In an earlier Harry Potter novel, Sibyll Trelawney, divination teacher, looks at Harry and declares that her inner eye sees past his “brave face to the troubled soul within.” ~NY Times article on the latest Harry Potter novel, “a far darker tale.”
In the plot of the first volume, Harry makes new friends and enemies (all of whom are aspiring young witches and wizards), meets the various professors at the school (Divination, Potions, Spells, Herbology, Defense Against the Dark Arts, and other disciplines within the world of arcane occult knowledge). ~Michael O’Brien
When I was a girl, I loved watching the popular television show, Bewitched. In fact, I became so bewitched with the idea of magic and witchcraft affecting everyday, humdrum life, that I checked a pile of books out of the public library on witchcraft and the occult, hoping to find out how to be a real-life Samantha. Our gracious Lord mercifully protected me and started putting Christians in my path to show me my need of a Savior and how to depend upon the mighty power of God rather than trust in the puny but evil spiritual manipulation that had attracted me.
There is some contention about whether the popular Harry Potter stories have encouraged children to develop more curiosity about occultic activities, but reading the list in Michael O’Brien’s quote above of the subjects taught at Harry’s school, and the list in Deuteronomy 18 about the activities God’s people are to shun, I think that reading Rowling’s “dark” tales for entertainment is a questionable pursuit for adults, and for children it’s playing with fire. When churches are blurring the lines between preaching the truth of God’s Word and giving pep talks modeled on popular marketing pitches and psychology lingo, it’s a cinch that discernment is in short supply. Even if there were “redeeming” features in the Harry Potter stories, I find the means for conveying them highly suspect, especially when the audience is intended to be young children, who, by definition, have not yet acquired wisdom and require diligent oversight and protection from the subtle attacks of the enemy who would like to lure them from serving King Jesus.
Again, I freely admit that I have not read any Harry Potter books, and I am not likely to do so, but I have read lots of reviews about them, both pro and con. I have especially appreciated the detailed examinations offered by Catholic writer Michael O’Brien, who outlines the spiritual stakes in this discussion very well. For example, after conceding some of the charming aspects of the Potter stories, Mr. O’Brien then explains how the charm is counteracted by the baseness which is sprinkled throughout the books:
But the charming details are mixed with the repulsive at every turn: Ron seeks to cast a spell that rebounds on himself, making him vomit slimy slugs, the ghost of a little girl lives in a toilet, excremental references are not uncommon, urination is no longer an off-limits subject, rudeness between students is routine behavior. In volume four especially these trends are in evidence, along with the added spice of sexuality inferred in references such as “private parts” and students pairing off and “going into the bushes.”
Student witches and wizards are taught to use their wands to cast hexes and spells to alter their environments, punish small foes, and defend themselves against more sinister enemies. Transfiguration lessons show them how to change objects and people into other kinds of creatures-sometimes against their will. In Potions class they make brews that can be used to control others. In Herbology they grow plants that are used in the potions-the roots of the mandrake plant, for example, are small living babies who scream when they are uprooted for transplanting, and are grown for the purpose of being cut into pieces and boiled in a magical potion.
If the various magical activities were portrayed as always being an evil and inappropriate activity for the heroes of the tale, perhaps I could understand why some Christians found merit in these stories, though the baseness described above is not reading matter I would want to give my children. But Harry is engaging in the activities of witchcraft which Deuteronomy 18 and many other Scripture passages expressly forbid for God’s people. Chuck Colson makes a silly distinction between the type of magic in the Potter stories and that used in occultism, saying the former is “mechanical,” not “magical.” Perhaps he is able to distinguish between the two, but I don’t think many pre-adolescents who are enchanted by the realistic portrayal of spell-casting and divination are going to figure it out.
In a time where niceness is a virtue and Christianity is just one (inferior) choice among many equal choices (just ask the president), a story which is filled with moral relativity ought to be repudiated, not embraced and encouraged by Christians. O’Brien says,
While Rowling posits the “good” use of occult powers against their misuse, thus imparting to her sub-creation an apparent aura of morality, the cumulative effect is to shift our understanding of the battle lines between good and evil. The border is never defined . . . The false notion of “the end justifies the means” is the subtext throughout. The author’s characterization and plot continually reinforce the message that if a person is “nice”, if he means well, is brave and loyal to his friends, he can pretty much do as he sees fit to combat horrific evil-magic powers being the ideal weapon.
I’m reading a book set in the “last days” of the “great tribulation” during A.D. 65-72, concurrent with reading Foxe’s Book of Martyrs aloud to my children. I’ve noticed that the Christians who lived and died during the depraved days of the Roman empire were often marked for destruction because they were so distinct from the evil culture in which they lived. Though they did take care to be “wise as serpents” and protect themselves when possible, they stood out from the crowd as they refused to participate in the luridness of the times. Paganism permeated every aspect of life, and they shunned the least bit of it, often to their hurt. Paganism and entertainment went hand-in-hand in ancient Rome, and the culmination of that combination was not very nice.
Consider this point by O’Brien:
When the reference points of Scripture and Tradition are rendered ineffectual by over-reliance on individual reason, we risk entering the end-phase of assimilation by paganism. Chesterton once pointed out, tongue-in-cheek, that the madman is not one who has lost his reason; rather he has lost everything but his reason. In other words, intelligence is no reliable measure of truth, for when intelligent people are subjective they are subjective in a highly articulate fashion.
The hard question we must ask ourselves at this point in history, is to what degree have our judgments been influenced by “imperceivable influences on the subconscious.” The record of our hits and misses in the area of discernment offers something of an answer: For example, reasonable Christian parents would not permit their children to read a series of enthralling books depicting the rites and adventures of likable young people involved in drug-dealing, or premarital sex, or sadism. We are still capable of recognizing the falsehood in glamorizing torture, because physical pain is a reality in everyone’s life and anyone unjustly inflicting pain is instantly recognized for what he is-an enemy. We would not give our children fiction in which a group of “good fornicators” struggled against a set of “bad fornicators”, because we know that the power of disordered sexual impulse is an abiding problem in human affairs, the negative effects of which we can see all around us. Why, then, have we accepted a set of books which glamorize and normalize occult activity, even though it is every bit as deadly to the soul as sexual sin, if not more so? Is it because we have not yet awakened to the fact that occultism is in fact a clear and present danger?
I strongly encourage you to read Michael O’Brien’s essay if you have been imbibing of Harry’s adventures and letting your children participate as well. As a mother who has some experience under her apron both with books and with children, I predict that if you give into the Potter-mania in your home now, while your children are young, you will have some struggles (well, some more struggles) down the road with your children as they grow and want to push the limits in the media they choose to enjoy. Be cautious both for their sake and for your own, to be discerning, and don’t easily trade away your spiritual sensitivity for a mess of Potter.
July 19th, 2005 at 3:04 am
“I’m reading a book set in the “last days†of the “great tribulation†during A.D. 65-72, concurrent with reading Foxe’s Book of Martyrs aloud to my children.”
What book is it that you’re reading?
I agree with what you said. Lauren at http://www.ahumbleheart.org/theblog/?p=116 is talking about Harry Potter, too.
When I think of Harry Potter (and so many other disturbing things that go against scripture), I think of the Pope quotation:
“Vice is a monster of so frightful mien,
As to be hated needs but to be seen;
Yet seen to oft, familiar with her face,
We first endure, then pity, then embrace.â€
July 19th, 2005 at 7:34 am
Dear Carmon,
You are a brave woman. Interesting post. When we were growing up my mother did not allow us to watch Bewitched. She was a young Christian and to her mind the scriptures were clear about that sort of thing. I don’t think it hurt us to miss that show and I don’t think it will hurt my children to miss Harry Potter.
I also felt the same way you describe while reading The Last Disciple. I thought, “How very unrelevant these early Christians come across.” As I have said on my own blog. The Last Disciple became devotional for me.
Your post also reminded me of RC Jr’s recent article in ETC about why he hasn’t read NT Wright.
July 19th, 2005 at 8:06 am
You really make some good points here and said some things that I had not thought of. I was planning to read the potter boods at some point (if I ever got arount to it), but you have made me reevaluate. Thank you. Elizabeth
July 19th, 2005 at 8:51 am
We do Harry Potter in our home. There are 2 basic reasons. #1 We got into the series years ago, before it ever would have occurred to us to avoid it. #2 My husband was raised to believe there is nothing beyond the physical world and to avoid this would be out of silly superstition over things that don’t exist anyway. He has gone from an atheist to a theist, which is almost enough to make you fall over as it is so I know God is working in his own time with him and not in a panic over such things right now. He is with me on raising our children as Christians but he has a different idea than I about when things have gone from moral and good to just silly paranoia. To try and ban Potter from our home would cause a lot of friction and make me into a contentious, complaining, more spiritual-than-thou-art wife and it’s not worth it.
Redeeming any potential harm from Potter is possible (whereas making an enemy of my husband would be far worse) and I am honest with my children over the fact that the Bible prohibits magic; Harry doesn’t always behave correctly, etc. I can also point out the fact that there is sacrificial love, true evil and courage to give up ones life for the fight against evil and for your friends. I think the author of the article you listed is fairly correct for the most part but the books do offer a more lines between right and wrong than he suggests. It holds more in common with a biblical worldview than some of the things coming out of Disney these days. (Again, I’m NOT defending Harry Potter, just saying that it can be managed probably easier than Pocahontas, Mulan or even Yoda’s strong Zen Buddhism of Star Wars.)
So, I do not recommend people go out and read the books but they can be managed when you run across those that do and it should be placed in line with other times of less than quality entertainment, not made far worse. I am far more concerned over children from families without any spiritual compass who pick them up though and it is certainly one more slip on the slope.
July 19th, 2005 at 12:52 pm
I have read and enjoyed all the HP books. In my opinion, Mr. O’Brien has gone looking for the worst possible examples and then played them to be far more base than they are in the books. I certainly don’t recall any “spiced up” sexuality or students pairing off and going into bushes, nor can I think of any “excremental references” or discussions of “urination”.
I affirm any Christian’s right to avoid books that seem unbiblical to them, but I respectfully disagree with posting a negative review on a book that one hasn’t read.
As parents, we all make decisions for our own families that may or may not fall in line with another family’s convictions. Our children love the Lord, we pray for them and pray about the things they participate in. I do not believe we are jeopardizing their spiritual sensitivity by allowing them to read Harry Potter.
The previous commentor has a good point about where we draw the lines. I am not a regular reader here, so I don’t know all your views, but it does surprise me that HP is banned in the same homes that embrace Star Wars, Tolkein, and many Disney films.
As this is a dissenting opinion and blogs are inconvenient for interpreting tone, I’d like to convey that I am not angry or intending to be rude. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss.
July 19th, 2005 at 1:26 pm
Carmon, I take the antithesis-as-lived-out-in-day-to-day-life more seriously than almost any Christian I know in real life, and 95%+ of those I know on the internet. I didn’t read Harry Potter until after the fourth book came out, mostly because I doubted that anything that was getting so much hype could possibly be any good but also because I have very strict standards for what my children read and doubted the books would meet them. I started to read them because I didn’t want to keep them from my kids without at least flipping through them first (and there are plenty of books that I have flipped through and rejected without any regrets as well as whole classes of books that my kids are not allowed to read.)
Suffice it to say that I read the first four books in less than a week, enjoyed them immensely, and have allowed my children to read them, listen to them on tape, and even (gasp!) watch the movies (since we only watch about 2 movies a year, that is saying a lot). I have not given the kids free reign on books 5 and 6 yet, but I have read them aloud to my husband. The books will probably be favorite family read-alouds when the younger set are ready, along with Lewis and Tolkein. I will not go so far as to say that Harry Potter is not-to-be-missed literary brilliance, but I have read them and the books are well-crafted, humorous, and undeniably (though not, at least yet, explicitly) Christian novels rich in the symbolic traditions of English literature. Frankly, I have more problems with the theology in C.S. Lewis’s Narnia than I do with Harry Potter.
John Granger’s book, Looking for God in Harry Potter, is also worth a read (though, like many of the Amazon.com reviewers, I think some of his interpretations go well beyond what the author probably intended) and well worth giving to Potter-loving children of 11 or 12 or so and up.
Be cautious and discerning, yes. But don’t be quick to condemn without looking for yourself.
July 19th, 2005 at 6:09 pm
You make some good points, but if you’d read the books I do not think you would have been so quick to use OBrien’s essay as a source.
July 19th, 2005 at 6:21 pm
Ladies,
I’m aware this is a controversial topic, and I knew that I would get you-know-what for being critical without having read the books. I respectfully disagree that I have to have read a book to express my concerns, just as I have no problem calling Islam a false religion without having read the Koran. I chose Michael O’Brien’s assessment over the negative reviews of evangelical Christians (though you wouldn’t find me consulting him on his views of justification) because he appears to give a more fair review without the conspiracy-minded tone I’ve seen in others. He has also shown himself to be reliable in fairly evaluating other fantasy literature, with his excellent analysis of how various authors deal with traditional, biblical symbolism (dragons, for example) in their books (see my review of A Landscape With Dragons).
I can’t argue about his quote regarding the baser elements found in the HP novels (anyone else out there who has any of the books want to address this?), but from all the synopses of the stories I have read, pro and con, it is obvious that the theme of the stories centers around the fact that Harry is a wizard who attends a school for wizards where he has learned to use magic arts (including divination and spell-casting), and he uses these things to manipulate people and events for “good” ends. The stories are not set in some fantasy world, but in the “real” world, which blurs the reality line for many children and makes the idea of trying some of these magical activities more appealing and possible. I am wondering how those who enjoy these books and share them with their children address the stern admonition from the Lord in Deuteronomy 18 which lists the very activities which Harry and his friends engage in, calling them “detestable?” Why is it okay for Harry when God says such activities are abominations?
Sora, I know how seriously you take the protection of your children. I am concerned, however, at the way other Christians in the past few years have been calling movies, books and other entertainment “Christian” if they have a theme of a battle between “good” and “evil.” I’ve heard Christians defend “The Matrix,” “Hellboy,” “Buffy the Vampire Slayer” and even “Star Wars” in this context (I’ve seen 50% of those
). In a time where we frequently find a little truth mixed with a lot of error, we need to set the bar pretty high for ourselves and our families as part of our responsibility to guard the truth. I agree that there are theological issues in Narnia that ought to be addressed (O’Brien does some of this in his book), but the Christianity there is very explicit from the start, and witches in his stories are evil, as they ought to be portrayed. Even with the fantasy of Tolkien and Lewis, however, I would warn parents of book-loving, intelligent children (from experience) that they need to be aware that their children will want to read more books in that genre, and there is a lot of bad children’s fantasy literature from a distinctly non-biblical viewpoint. Because of the specific biblical prohibitions about witchcraft, etc., I have problems with a spell-casting, broomstick-riding wizard protagonist as a Christian hero, no matter how engaging the story. (For another review of the stories which contrasts them with Tolkien and Lewis, click here, though I do not agree with the author’s ambiguous conclusions after he takes such great pains to point out many of HP’s flaws from a Christian viewpoint.)
July 19th, 2005 at 7:17 pm
I disagree that HP is set in the REAL world. Rowling creates a fantasy world by suggesting that there is an alternate wizarding world that parallels our ordinary world. Clearly this is not true. There are no real wizard boarding schools, no flying cars, no centaurs, or forbidden forests. It is impossible to fly a broomstick. Giants and witches of the type in these books, just don’t exist. I’m a little dumbfounded that anyone would suggest it is real. (I’m not saying that real witchcraft doesn’t exist in our real world, because of course, it does; only that I don’t think Rowling’s fantasy world is the same thing.)
I also wouldn’t consider Harry a Christian hero. There are most definitely themes of self-sacrifice for the greater good, but it is not a christian novel, in my opinion.
Again, thanks for the chance to discuss!
July 19th, 2005 at 8:07 pm
Sparrow, I understand that the HP stories are set in an England that is not like the *real* thing, but also, the time and place have elements which could be like real life, whereas Narnia and Middle Earth are clearly fantastical and not easily confused with where we now live. There are some ways Narnia intrudes into this world, but the wizard school is (according to what I’ve read
) a *normal* but hidden part of the regular world in which regular people live. In the last article I linked in my comment, the author makes a good point about how making a distinctive and separate place which cannot be confused with the here and now is a hedge of protection in children’s fantasy literature. (Scroll down to the section called “Wizard secret society in England” for a detailed discussion of this element).
July 19th, 2005 at 10:34 pm
Carmon,
I see what you are saying (and the article you linked), but the in-depth analysis draws too fine a line for me. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on Harry. I appreciate your thoughtful responses and the polite tone of all the comments. God bless.
July 20th, 2005 at 5:20 am
Carmon, I’m not defending the books, but O’Brien’s description is quite strange in many details (the Mandrake roots in particular stood out as just a bizarre way to describe what is merely a pun- mandrake roots are, in the first place, called ‘man’drakes because of their similarity to the human form- the mandrake roots in the book are _not_ babies- they are baby mandrake roots- noisy, screaming- but they are roots. They are transplanted while they are young plants. They are used in an herbal remedy after they are fully grown plants. There’s nothing like mashing and boiling of babies going on, and it’s just weird to describe it that way).
In my opinion, criticism like his (and yes, I have seen much, much worse) is counterproductive. A concerned parent reads that the book refers frequently to private parts and urination and then reads the book and finds out that it just isn’t so, and that most of the other complaints made are also misrepresentations of what is going on. This dilutes any legitimate concerns. Most Christians that I know who have read the books actually started out this way. They assumed they would disapprove of them, but after reading one and seeing how little the book resembles the things said about it, and how much things have been yanked out of context or twisted out of their original meaning (like a pun on words like mandrakes), that now they almost feel like they’ve been had. Certainly they are unimpressed with the way the Christian right has again overreacted and made itself look silly and uninformed, and since the writing is engaging and the plot is a page turner, they end up reading the books.
If those who wish to warn against the books would restrain themselves to Deuteronomy and one or two carefully chosen instances of vulgarity (there are enough real ones that I don’t understand why people keep making things up and twisting things out of context to generate new complaints- who would defend vomit and ear wax flavored candy, for instance), it would be a better rhetorical stance. By overreaching, as O’Brien and virtually ever other HP critic does, it ends up altering the basis of the discussion, giving those who want to defend HP plenty of easy targets. It’s self defeating, because it alters the basis of the argument from criticism of HP to criticism of the criticism, and there is at least as much to criticize about HP criticism as there is about HP.
July 20th, 2005 at 5:33 am
“I can’t argue about his quote regarding the baser elements found in the HP novels (anyone else out there who has any of the books want to address this?)”
Pre-teens and younger teens find poop and bodily functions funny. It doesn’t matter if they are Christian, Islamic, or Atheist. Walk up to a 12 year old, say the word poop and you’ll get a giggle. Ghosts that haunt the plumbing system are just a way for Rowling to get easy laughs in the book by connecting with the things that real 12 year olds find funny.
Kids read these books and see other kids that are like them, struggling with the same core issues of faith, friends, betrayal, etc., in this wild and different pretend universe that is both exactly like ours, and totally different, at the same time. The reason the books are so wildly popular has nothing to do with witches and wizards and has everything to do with the fact that each us can in some way identify with Harry and his friends.
July 20th, 2005 at 7:39 am
DHM, I don’t think O’Brien, to be fair, said that the books were filled with references to private parts and urination…he said the “charming details” were “mixed with the repulsive at every turn,” then mentioned some repulsive details in the books he had read (and this was written before the latest novel). From what I’ve read on the sites of pro-Harry folks, the latest book also has a teen romance theme and a particularly gruesome death scene. While I don’t find romance repulsive, I do think Christian parents again need to tread carefully here…and I remind the adults reading that these books are enjoyed by all ages, but are specifically marketed to children, and the youngest readers are reading them or listening to them. I do agree that if O’Brien (and others) overreach in their criticism, it is self-defeating, though I’ve read so much from both sides, and many excerpts, that my concerns still stand. In my experience of reading O’Brien’s other works on children’s lit, I have found him to be a reliable and fair critic, though, and in my experience of reading things by the DHM, I have found her to be the same
.
COD, as a mother of 7 boys, I am very aware that “bathroom talk” is considered humorous by many children, but I don’t encourage it in my home and I think that coarse language should be discouraged in a Christian family. In Ephesians 5, it says:
In the previous post’s comments refer to a disabled man’s discussion of his difficulties using the bathroom (in a book written for adults). I have no problem with such appropriate descriptions, but encouraging children to indulge in potty talk is one (small) reason I would steer away from HP.
However, nobody has been willing to talk about the elephant in the bathroom
: Why is HP okay when Deuteronomy 18 specifically prohibits believers from the activities spoken of approvingly in the books?
July 20th, 2005 at 7:39 am
Well, I have read Rowlings, Tolkien and Lewis. I did enjoy the first of the Potter books. I did, however, think they were inappropriate for my children. My husband has not read the Potter books, but we watched the movies together and he liked them. When I say together, I mean he and I, not the whole family.
I think the arguments against Potter are legitimately applied to Tolkien. Isn’t Gandalf a white-wizard? Doesn’t the fairy queen (whatever her name is-I forgot) practice “good” magic? I think it is confusing for most people when a person will argue for Middle Earth and against Potter. I know it is to me. I see the argument when it comes to Lewis. His witches and even “harmless” Uncle Andrew are not painted as heroes.
I agree with you, Carmon, that children have a hard time discerning reality from fantasy. Harry Potter does come and go from a “normal” world to a pretend world. I think children would just as easily be confused with Middle Earth being real. I think we need to know our children and screen what they read/watch/listen too.
I have increasingly become more critical of what I read. I don’t want to read simply for amusement. I don’t have enough time to waste with some things that won’t uplift me. Now I have read the Potter books that are out. I enjoyed the first one immensely. I have become more and more disenchanted with the series with each book.
The first book was very funny. I would recommend it to an adult with a firm christian world-view. I saw some great themes in this book. The one that stuck out to me the most was why Harry was “saved” from Voldemort. It was that his mother laid down her life for him and he was untouchable because he was marked with her love. I saw Christ’s death in our place and that nothing can snatch us from His hand. The book was NOT written from a christian perspective. All symbolism that I saw comes from MY reformed, christian world-view (just as a disclaimer). I am sure that many of the pro-reviews elucidate the good things in the book. More than I probably saw. Also more than I care to get into here.
The more recent books disturb me. I don’t really want (except for an occasional twinge of curiosity) to read the others when they come out. The books seem to get more “adult” when it comes to relationships. There is a pairing off with the main characters. I feel there is such a pressure especially in public AND private high schools (I speak from experience) to be a part of a couple. I see this in the latter books-noticing the opposite sex, kissing of girlfriends and such. There is no out-and-out sex. Most of the girl/boy thing would be considered mild or not note-worthy to most. I know that since that is NOT the direction my husband and I want to go with our family it stuck out like a sore thumb to me.
The other thing about the latter books is that they are simply a repitition of the first book’s plot. Harry is in danger, Voldemort is trying to get to him, his friends try to take care of him, he faces Voldemort alone, triumphs over Voldemort and Voldemort goes into hiding until the next book. She could have written one maybe two good books. Makes me wonder if she will stop with just seven. I mean how many Left Behind are there? You would think the world would have ended before book two, but…
I would NOT, NOT, NOT let my children read these books. I don’t think they are discerning enough. We didn’t go to a recent library event because it was a magic show based on Potter. If it had been all “illusions” we would have gone, but I didn’t like the theme. There is quite a bit in modern films including Disney that our children are not allowed to watch. It is a hard line to draw when even our christian friends let their children watch Shrek and The Lion King.
I guess we seem odd in our choices for our children to most people. The boys have seen The Patriot, but we have pulled a couple of VeggieTales because of theological content. So there you are; my two-cents for what ever they are worth to you.
As always, Carmon, this comment is submitted with great respect for you. I greatly appreciate you and your website.
July 20th, 2005 at 7:52 am
Some will call me narrow-minded and even pity me for not allowing myself or our children to experience Harry Potter, but the Deuteronomy passage alone is enough for us to eschew the books without apology. (That goes for Gandalf and Glinda the “Good Witch” as well.) Our family will be fine with the array of other rich, engaging literary selections God has provided.
July 20th, 2005 at 7:59 am
Actually, I’m quite a bit more passionate about my stance against Harry, Gandalf, Glinda and Yoda but because I was trying to go out of my way to “speak kindly” my comment appears rather flat. LOL.
July 20th, 2005 at 10:18 am
It seems several people are arguing that Harry Potter is harmless because the magic in the books is “pretend,” “not real,” and, if you will, “feigned.” I think it’s worth noting, then, that according to Easton’s 1897 Bible Dictionary, as quoted in Dictionary.com’s entry for “witchcraft,” the witch of Endor who Saul consulted was NOT actually a witch. She was, in fact, “a necromancer, i.e., one who feigned to hold converse with the dead.”
In other words, the witch of Endor was merely pretending to call up the spirit of Samuel (which conclusion is backed by the commentaries of Matthew Henry). Considering God didn’t take too kindly to Saul speaking with a witch who pretended to perform witchcraft, why should things be much different when it comes to Harry Potter performing pretend witchcraft?
The argument that HP witchcraft is “pretend” raises a question…where do you draw the line? What is “real” witchcraft and what is “pretend”?
One online article says, “We’re introduced in the Philosopher’s Stone to the occult practice of shape-shifting or transfiguration as it is taught at Hogwarts. The cat who transforms into Professor McGonagall, is merely representing what shamanism and pagan traditions have taught for centuries. Shapeshifting is a belief that suggests that each person has an animal personality or inheritance that indwells them. In shamanism the animal or creature becomes their spirit guide –demon–through meditation. Native lore suggests that seeing a particular animal means a particular message. In Harry Potter, McGonagall was a cat–sacred to occultists, there was also mention of a werewolf, dog, rat, and stag and vampires.” It’s undeniable that shapeshifting *is* a real world occult belief, so what about its appearance in HP is “pretend”? The fact that it can’t really happen? Well, it’s debatable that necromancy can’t *really* happen, yet *pretending* to engage in it is soundly condemned by Scripture.
That’s just one example from the books. I won’t offer others just now, but I don’t think there’s a need to. The argument really boils down to the question of how do you distinguish between “real” magic and “pretend” magic? And what Scriptural evidence is there that even *pretend* magic is acceptable?
July 20th, 2005 at 11:10 am
Carmon and Ruthanne, Deuteronomy 18 is pretty much the best place to argue from on this issue, IMO, for the reasons I stated earlier.
Case in point, There is not, fwiw, a particularly gruesome death scene in the last book. There’s a death scene. There are two brutal and gruesome scenes elsewhere, though the victim in each case survives and recovers. I wonder if somebody hasn’t mixed up one of these with the death scene? At any rate, the death scene is heartbreaking because of who dies, but it’s not gruesome or bloody, and is another act of life saving sacrifice such as that made by Harry’s mother. I do not think the brutality of the other two scenes is justifiable or defensable, and I am still not defending HP. I’m just pointing out one reason why I think this discussion always veers off message, and that’s because the original message gets muddied up when the anti-HP people try too hard to bolster their case by using guesswork and out of context events- like this one. It would also be problematic to claim that the death scene is too brutal for young people because there’s never been a death scene in HP as brutal and hard to deal with as the crucifixion. After all, we have to accept personal responsibility for that one. STick with Deuteronomy 18 and the talk about boogers and ear wax flavored candy- those are unanswerable, IMO. Most other points are too easily refuted and the substance of the message gets lost.
So after saying that I think it’s best to stick to a narrow set of points to keep the discussion on message, now I’ll veer off message some more=) you mentioned that you had heard that things like the Matrix and STar Wars had Christian messages, and that you didn’t agree. I agree with you there, too, although I would argue that Matrix One had a prolife message. However- I think they might be said to have some of the same themes as the Christian message. I just wanted to share something interesting (apologies if this is annoying. I just love literary discussions). An atheist told me that he was surprised I did not like those movies, because he saw Christian themes in those very films. He particularly thought that Star Wars was steeped in the same story elements as the gospel message. So I asked him if he thought that George Lucas did that on purpose or if it just worked out that way because the gospel message really is great story (my atheist friend is very literary and very big on story. I have hopes that God will draw him in through that some day). My atheist friend admitted that he thought it was because the gospel was a great story and so the similarities he saw, while real, were not an attempt to allegorically deliver a gospel message.
I wonder if any story that engages readers at the level HP, Star Wars, and the Matrix have done will be a story that repeats some of those elements because those elements resonate with the heart and soul of mankind. I am _not_ arguing that this somehow baptizes those stories and makes them sanctified. It could even make them more dangerous. I am primarily throwing that out for consideration and wonder what somebody else thinks, and secondarily suggesting that if this does explain part of their appeal, and we understand that, we might find our way to weaning somebody from faerie to the true King of Kings and Master of the Universe.
July 20th, 2005 at 11:18 am
RC Jr’s article came to my mind too. I haven’t read the books. From all the reviews I’ve read it seems that the only way to really find out is to read them for myself and there is just too much else to do than to worry about screening every fad that comes along. I would like to comment about boys and potty humor though. It IS natural for boys (and sometimes girls) to be drawn into laughing at potty humor-that’s why they have parents. To train it OUT of them and to call them to higher things! When my kids think laughing at these things is cute and funny, they get their mouths cleaned up with oatmeal soap and water.
And I really have not had to do that too often! I want to provide the culture of my home and my childrens’ mind with the good and right. How can I do that if I give them the base to dwell on?
July 20th, 2005 at 12:13 pm
Hi, Kerri…this is OT, but are you part of the fellowship near Portland which my buddies the Walkers and Stooses are involved with?
July 20th, 2005 at 1:05 pm
I would recommend anyone interested in the reasons why Tolkien’s and CS Lewis’s “magic” is more acceptable and more readily embraced than the Harry Potter version, read “Harry Potter and the Bible: The Menace Behind the Magick”. I didn’t feel in any way that the author (Richard Abanes) was sensationalist or conspiracy-minded. He reviews chapter by chapter, gives actual quotes from kids and adults who enjoy HP as well as quotes from interviews with the author. I read it with my kids and we all enjoyed it and felt that, for our family, HP books were not our style. I think one of the biggest reasons we made this decision is the fact that HP seems to continually break and (get away with breaking) the rules. The “consequences” are positive rather than negative. Also, we were concerned with how real-to-life the witch/occult practices seem to be. Additionally, we were impressed with some secular points of view that we heard regarding the novels tendency to become darker with each new release. One book reviewer in particular(not a professing Christian) stopped reading the books to his daughter as a result of the darker overtones
In our family, we want to read books that are uplifting to our spirit, affirm choices and lifestyles that are God-honoring, and challenge us to better ourselves. It didn’t seem that the HP books fell in line with those desires.
Just my two-cents worth
July 20th, 2005 at 2:21 pm
Whew!! This is a lot to chew on today! Not having read any HP, I’m not much help. But, I will say that at least from the movie standpoint of “Lord of the Rings” saga, that Gandolf doesn’t use his “wizardness” (a new word for you Carmon) to cast a bunch of spells on people. In fact, he fights with courage just as everyone else. Gandolf doesn’t waste time covering up the evil glass ball that the enemy uses to control the thoughts of others. In this way, I think that the comparison between LOTR and HP is a little bit deeper. Perhaps in all things we have to ask what the purpose is?, does it edify?, how does it compare with God’s standards. I think too that you can teach the principles of life, without the images. This is a comment that has a lot of “liberty” built into it,.and is not meant to be a personal critisism. If I showed my children who are all almost 6 and under “The Patriot”,..some would have to sleep with us for a week,..due to the graphic nature!!! But, we are teaching our four boys to be protectors of their sister, and what God has created them to be. I am by no means perfect in this area of what to let me children see and not see. Perhaps my good friend in CO has the best idea of no t.v. in their home at all!! May the Lord gives us wisdom in this area!! Oh, Pieter,..how funny, because I just read this passage today. What caught my attention was in vs. 10 “And Saul swore to her by the Lord”..interesting that he used the Lord’s name,.but was consulting a medium to solve his problem.
July 20th, 2005 at 3:09 pm
Why yes! That’s us. As a matter of fact, I saw a couple Stooses there last Sunday!
July 21st, 2005 at 9:47 am
Just few thoughts I think could be helpful to the discussion:
The first is this: both in Narnia and LOTR it is not the humans who are doing the magic that is protrayed as ok (ie: Gandalfs magic is ok, the elfs magic is ok, Aslans magic is ok, Uncle Andrew’s is not). That those creatures who participate in magic are not the ones that children are identifying with. There is a great passage in the silver chair where Eustace makes a great comment about Aslan not wanting them to do that sort of stuff. So right there, there is HUGE difference between HP fantasy and Tolkien and Lewis.
The second thought: Tolkien was very very adamant that LOTR was not allegory. He wasn’t pushing Christianty in the trilogy. But, explained much of what was there as a concept of “splinters of light.” It was his belief (as a writer) that all truly great literature is going to have splinters of light in it- in other words, glimpses of the ultimate truth. It isn’t going to have all of it, it isn’t going to necessarily spell out the Gospel, but it is going to have elements of universal truth. I think the so called “Christian themes” that are seen in Star Wars, Matrix, LOTR, HP, etc are products of this. As it was said earlier, it is simply good story if nothing else and drawn upon extensively by all people.
The third thought: Now I haven’t read the books. I’m not anti-HP. I’ve seen the three movies that have come out. What I know of the stories as they progress is limited, but my understanding is that not only do the books get darker, but that Harry becomes less and less of a truly good character and begins to become more and more like Voldemort. So we have a character that the readers fall in love with as a sweet, heroic boy who lost his parents and is trying to make sense of the world that then becomes like the evil he is fighting. But by that time he is already a role model. The line between good and evil in the HP books is never very strong, and good and evil seems to be constantly coming closer and closer together as the books go on. It is a very subtle world view that is in there working away at the readers. Honestly I find it of more concern than the witchcraft. Afterall it is very easy to point to passages in the books and say “this is absolutley wrong and not acceptable for God people” and a lot harder to explain an under lying current that slowly changes through out the books to an 8 year old.
Fourth thought: simply not reading a book (or other entertainment source) because the characters are sinning or even worshiping others Gods elimates most literature. Pretty much all classical greek lit, almost everything modern, majority of TV and movies, and pleanty of books inbetween classics such as Shakespere and Austin. Getting rid of a series of books for that alone will have us all reading very very little.
In conclusion I don’t know if I’m going to read all of the books or not, but I think there is more on the table to consider than Deut. 18.
July 21st, 2005 at 9:52 am
I have to say that I dont think books or movies that promote the forces of evil have nay plce n a Christian home. However, I have seen the movies. I am up against a situation much like Cheryls wherein my husband sees nothing wrong with them. It puts the wife in a tough postion. Having seen the movies I have to agree with Sparrow in that OBrians evaluation of the books seems a bit radical. I dont recall a lot of that stuff but then maybe it isnt in the movies.
There are so many good uplifting books out there that I dont really see why we need to read these books. The Bible tells us how Satan works. Thats all I need to know of the powers of evil. I personally think the HP books are Satan coming as an angel of light. If an author would have written an adult book on witchcraft we as Christians would have never condoned it. I think this is Satans way of subtley creeping into the Christian home.
Beware for your adversary the devil roareth about seeking whom he may devour!
July 21st, 2005 at 7:59 pm
Could you tell me how reading Harry Potter glorifies God? I see all of these opionions about why it is not so bad. What I want to know is when Jesus comes would you want to be reading Harry? This is not intended to be rude. I always ask myself this question before
I read or watch anything.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:14 pm
Except for the latest one, I’ve read all the books and seen all the movies. In general, the “witchy” stuff did not offend me. To me, it was no more or less than the silly stuff you find in the Brothers Grimm.
I am, however, less impressed by what some bloggers call the ‘90210′ factor, a reference to that TV show about the Beverly Hills teens. The last couple of books – and the latest one – seem to have more of this stuff. In a way, it’s amusing, that despite having all those spells and potions, at their disposal, it doesn’t prevent these teens wizards from acting as pedestrian and petty and moonstruck as kids in regular ol’ high schools. The author, unintentionally, makes a strong statement about the grind of institutionalized schooling and general nastiness of boarding schools.
July 21st, 2005 at 8:55 pm
I have a dear friend whose beliefs surprised me lately. She is extremely intelligent, very much a “thinker”, and a devout follower of Christ. But she believes that the Old Testament is a collection of “good stories”. Now, this surprised me because I thought she was just like you or I, often quite like-minded, and conservative.
Could it be that many don’t hold reading Harry Potter up to Deuteronomy 18 because deep down, we really think that we’re all about “freedom”?
As one who also was absolutely fascinated by witchcraft and magic as a youth, and ended up having a very alarming occultic experience even after I was saved (because of pure stupidity on my part, and a complete lack of discipleship until I was much older), I am extremely guarded with anything that can entice or intrigue my own children. The enemy DOES prowl about seeking to devour, and just as I protect my children from unsavory environments, toxic foods, and seedy people, I also protect them from witchcraft and sorcery – because there is no good to be found in them.
Freedom? I think that God’s way is not without limits.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:15 pm
Carmon and others,
I have just posted a lengthy piece on my own blog in defense of Harry, in which I address both “the elephant in the bathroom” and “how Harry Potter glorifies God.”
For those who don’t know me, I’m downright fanatical about guarding my children’s minds. I have pre-read or at least skimmed every single book my children have ever laid hands on. They’ve never seen a Disney cartoon, Star Wars, ANY television, read any mass-market children’s fiction, or even watched Veggie Tales. But we do Harry Potter. I hope my blog entry will help you understand why.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:16 pm
I agree with Mrs. Darling and think so many Christians have been lulled into comas where this topic is concerned.
Should it really matter that Gandalf is not actually human or lives in Middle Earth? Should it really matter that it is animals doing the magic and not people? These scenarios serve to desensitize us. To me saying the magic, divination and sorcery are okay for those reasons is compromise and is pushing things to see just how far we can go without crossing the line.
When I see HP and LOTR books in the store I think the same thing that comes to mind when I see a Quija board at Toys R Us…”Get that thing away from me. It’s evil.” If this makes me look like an unsophisticated, unitellectual simpleton, well, there are worse things to be and I can live with that.
Isaiah 5:20 ~
“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.”
I’m okay with a good story that portrays an evil-doing being as EVIL but I’m not okay with evildoers being made to look like good, righteous, self-sacrificing heroes. That’s just wrong.
(Let me quickly and humbly add that I know there are areas of sin in my own heart and life to which my conscience has been dulled. I have no stones to throw. May God show me mercy and open my eyes to those things that need confessing, renouncing and pruning!)
I’m not as articulate as so many others here, so I hope my thoughts are coming across charitably.
July 21st, 2005 at 10:27 pm
We have chosen not to read the Harry Potter books for the same reasons you cited, Carmon.
Tambra, excellent point!