Rotten Tomatoes
My friend Cindy often writes the things I’m thinking:
Much of the current mess that we call evangelicalism is the consequence of the ideas of dispensationalism. If people today denounce dispensationalism it doesn’t mean they aren’t bearers of its fruit. The Bible speaks of all this as sowing and reaping. But it helps to understand that if we sow the wind we will reap the whirlwind.
To understand anything we must examine the fruit and trace the seedline. If we just throw darts at the bad fruit we will get nowhere.
Cindy goes on to encourage people to think through where their ideas come from and what the consequences might be if they follow them through to their logical conclusions. This is very wise counsel.
I’ve been musing over some popular ideas lately, and I have some concerns about the fruit borne from what I think are faulty premises. I premise that the Bible teaches, both by example and precept, everything we need to live a life pleasing to God.
That premise is one with which most conservative Christians agree. The next one is a little more controversial, but still easy for most to swallow: God created men and women to have different roles, and while they are equal in the sight of God, men are ordained by God from creation to a position of headship and women to a position of helpmeet.
I may have lost a few people with that last paragraph, but this is where I forfeit my membership in the “How to Win Friends and Influence People” club. Because men and women are designed by God not just in their physical bodies, but in every aspect of their beings (being careful to note that spiritually we are equal in standing with all Christians regarding our relationship to God), to fulfill this role of helpmeet, then the pursuits and goals of men and women should and will often be different from one another.
Now here’s where the rotten tomatoes get thrown my way (Cindy did mention something about “rotten fruit”). Because the Bible portrays by example and precept that women are normally to be involved in pursuits which center around home and family, because a godly seed and many children trained in the knowledge of God is given in Scripture as a delight to the Lord and a blessing from Him, because it is men in the Bible who are shown to be responsible for sitting in the gates and providing for their families, then…
The current normative practice of Christians sending daughters to college is generally wrong and can have negative consequences.
Now, put those tomatoes down. I actually want to hear from those who don’t agree with me, but I want an answer to this question: Why do you think it is necessary for your Christian daughter to go to college? Right now I don’t want to hear from those who agree with me, though I appreciate the support. I also hope that those who reply will notice the “speak kindly” button before they click on it. No fair emailing all your girlfriends to gang up on me either 
.
As I have a chance this week, I will address the answers I get, hoping to have a civil dialogue on this controversial topic. I will also link to some pertinent articles. And I hope to make my point that the consequences of the widespread practice of sending our daughters to college may, as Cindy said (on another topic—I don’t know how she feels about this one), “not be magic.”
Note: If you are having trouble posting comments (we recently upgraded to a new version of WordPress), please send it to me to post for you—carmon(at)softanswer(dot)com.
February 6th, 2006 at 5:50 am
I actually do agree for the most part. I think there can be times when a girl can enjoy taking outside courses. But I think college has become seriously over-rated for everyone. I am sure a daughter who intends to be a homemaker (and I think that is what she should be doing) can give herself a better education at home than most of what is available to her today through going to college. She can seek out wisdom, knowledge and understanding at home through many different avenues and not endanger her soul.
If the Pilgrims left Holland and came to the wilderness of America to protect their godly seed, why can’t we have this discussion?
February 6th, 2006 at 7:37 am
I am not sure that I agree about not sending our daughters to college. I am concerned about sending our boys there too. I am very interested to read the book College without Compromise. Michael Farris has also proposed getting back to a more apprenticeship type of approach to job training. I think I lean in that direction.
I think this topic is many pronged. I grew up wanting to be a wife and mother, but felt that was an unacceptable goal in life. I was supposed to have great career goals and if I happened to find that right guy then I could reconsider. Here I am with quite a few college credits in the area of child development and I am a wife and homeschooling mom. I love my “job.” My experiences have, however, given me good reason to stand on the side of family oriented “outreach” as opposed to daycare/youthgroup programs. So I do not think that in God’s Providence those things are wasted. I don’t think that I would encourage anyone to take that route for those experiences either.
There are some jobs that I think we desperately need more women in. Christian midwives, for example. Now that brings up a whole bunch of questions on how to get them trained and when and, and…
Interesting Carmon, verrry interesting:) I wouldn’t throw tomatoes at you even if I disagreed with you, promise:) Maybe challenge you to a shootin’ match.
February 6th, 2006 at 8:52 am
I do not think that college should be normative for our daughters, but I do believe there are some roles which *must* be filled by women that can not be done without a college education. Specifically Obstetrics and Gynecology. Midwives can be appreticed through other midwives, but I am not aware of any way to do this for doctor positions. Because the bible speaks very clearly against men seeing a woman, to whom they are not married, naked, then these roles must be returned to women. It would be great if we could see a return of women-only colleges which taught these skills, where our daughters who feel called to this role could learn without being placed in risky situations and taught feministic theology.
February 6th, 2006 at 9:36 am
Our daughter will most likely be going off to college in a year and a half.
I do not think it is ‘generally wrong’. But I agree that there is the possiblity of negative consequences.
But I think there is the possibility of negative consequences in going to the grocery store or getting a job.
There is always the possiblity that our children will meet with harm. I think if the reason for not sending a daughter is fear…then perhaps there is a lack of trusting God.
I could agree with you completely. I would love to keep my daughter’s home and not let them leave the safety of our home until they are married. But, as my huband is not, at all, of this mindset…I have to be brave and trust God and my husband.
I believe that God can and does protect us even if the parents do the wrong thing or even do what they believe is right.
My parents died when I was 16. I was alone in all of the choices for my life.
I went to college because I had no where else to go.
My thinking was not changed in college as to my religious beliefs nor my social beliefs. (I had always wanted to be a stay at home mom….and I went to college as a Christian and came out a Christian)
I continue to urge my daughter to go to college near home…but I think she may want to fly a little further from the nest. And I can understand her desire to explore and experience more than just our hometown. I am not afraid she will backslide. And really I am not her Holy Spirit. Her relationship with God and choices will be her.
But at what age? When?
I do not belive I have the right to force her to stay home. What are our rights as parents? Do we have the right to tell our daughters how they must live their lives?
I wonder about this. I have a friend who told her daughter that she may not date until she is 20. (This girl is in college away from home…and has a boyfriend) Is there an age when the Bible says a child is responsible for themselves?
Can wanting the best for your daughter become a matter of control?
When are our daughters ready to make their own choices and shift from Parent-control to God-control?
Sincerely wondering,
Donna
February 6th, 2006 at 10:07 am
I’m not all for it and not totally against it. It really is complicated. I think the bottem line is talking to your daughters and demostrating (by being home yourself) the value and Biblical standard of women being home and a helpmeet to their own husbands. The best advise I was given as a young Christian and young lady in a large secular university (like Donna, on my own at 18) was that I should be willing to give up my career and education for my husband and family. And praise God, I gladly did that when I was pregnant with my first child. I think it was Elizabeth Elliot that gave that very wise advise. I hope to keep my daughters close to home but I don’t have a problem with them furthering their education as long as they know what is really important.
February 6th, 2006 at 12:17 pm
When I read your post my first thought was “But where will my daughter ever meet an intelligent husband?” Shallow, I suppose, but I do know that in a town like mine, the more thoughtful Christians tend to be in the minority. Perhaps this is true everywhere. I met my husband at a Christians college, though I do think that $100,000 (!!) is a lot to pay to marry off one’s daughter…
February 6th, 2006 at 12:33 pm
This discussion is timely for me, in that my 11 yr. old daughter’s Sunday School class (girls’ group)was asked by their leader where they would like to go to college. My daughter (who recently read “So Much More” published by Vision Forum, a book I would encourage all mothers and older daughters to read) stated that she does not intend to go to college and aspires to be a wife and mother. Her SS teacher said that girls should go to college in case they get divorced! I think that college life as a “norm” for Christian young ladies needs to be re-evaluated. I am in favor of my daughters being under the protection and headship of their father until marriage, serving their family and others from the home while using that time to pursue other means of learning: online courses, apprenticeships, self-study, home-based jobs, etc.
February 6th, 2006 at 1:13 pm
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with a daughter going to college. I think there could be problems if she was living away from home attending a secular college or preferred it to being a wife and mother. I have many friends who have college degrees and have been happy homemakers their entire married lives. I only have 30 college credits to my name and I worked at a variety of jobs when I was single, but I gladly “gave it all up” once I got married. I have no wishes at all to have a career, and when my children are all grown, I hope to help with my grandchildren. I have absolutely no regrets that I went to college, and I committed no sin in doing so.
Alyssa would love to go away to college. She said she is tired of noisy, messy, little boys who break her belongings and she thinks it would be fun to be on her own. She wants to go to Chicago because we lived there for six years and almost all of my husband’s relatives live there. It’s not going to happen, though–we have no money for private college and we’re sure not going to go into debt for any of our children to get a college degree. We told them if they go to the local community college or study at home we will do our best to pay as much as we can and they can help as they can.
Being a homemaker in my family is a normative experience and all the women on my side of the family have been homemakers, no matter what level of education they have had. My mother now has a career but that came about after my father left her for a neighbor woman. Even though she’s officially a career woman, she’s still very grandmotherly and knits, bakes, gardens, and loves us. She has often remarked on how much happier she was when she didn’t have to go out to work. I am not worried at all that Alyssa will radically change personality and become a feminist.
I do know families who are very controlling of their children’s behavior. One family’s daughter is now 24 but they won’t allow her to leave and they don’t think she’s ready to be married yet. She is a very sweet young woman and very accomplished and mature and would make a wonderful wife. When I was her age I already had two children, and I don’t think it’s right of her parents to be so controlling. We’ve had flak from other families because we even allow Alyssa to work at a family restaurant ten minutes away. She cooks breakfast and sometimes lunch there on Saturdays.
In our area there are many Amish and Mennonites and they believe it is a sin to go to school past eighth grade. Anyone with a high school education is proud. Thankfully they did give a special dispensation to the midwife I used for my last two children and she actually has two master’s degress and can write prescriptions even though she’s a Black Bumper Mennonite.
BTW, I don’t agree with Alyssa’s reasons for wanting to go away to college and I would prefer her to study from home. However, we are not going to force her to do that. Vince is not happy that Philip wants to go into welding as a career. He said he doesn’t think he’ll make enough money to support a family if he does that. Ideally our almost grown children would listen to and obey all our advice just as we always listened to and obeyed our own parents (oops!). The reality of living in a fallen world and having sin natures sometimes precludes that.
February 6th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Our daughter is away at school because thus far we have not met any suitable young men. She would like nothing more than to marry and bear children. We considered keeping her at home after high school but we weren’t sure how she would spend her time. We do not have any young children at home, my husband works in a corporate environment, there are no families at church she could assist, etc. So for now, she is at school, studying and reading, and praying for that young man. Her requirements are homeschooling, no birth control and reformed theology. As you must know, these things combined make us in the minority and she’s finding that she hasn’t met any young men who agree with this. As you can tell, we are still torn about our decision.
February 6th, 2006 at 7:45 pm
……Very interesting topic! I always enjoy seeing where your posts will lead! My husband and I have discussed this question for years. Our first-born is a son but then God blessed us with 5 daughters. We have chosen to trust God in this and here is what has happened so far. Both daughters have been in a place where there has been family near. Daugher #1 is a junior at a Christian school in downtown Minneapolis, Minn.. She desires to learn God’s Word and to prepare to work with youth especially young ladies who need Jesus and somebody to love them. She believes that she is called to be prepared to work alongside her husband in ministry in this way if the Lord so leads. It has been a tremendous blessing for her, not without some hard issues and times of lonliness and much soul searching, but she is blossoming and learning to fully lean on God for all of her needs as He is the only one who will be with her all the days of her life. We are country folk and the hardest part of this was leaving her in the middle of a city, but we knew our 18 year old had been on her knees seeking God, and God can speak to a teen as He did in the Bible right? So, we trusted God with her that day and every day since. Daughter #2 has great managerial skills and desired to go to tech school. We are 120 miles from the nearest large city and yet God provided through her brother a place to live, and she is enjoying her studies and is doing well. She has been a light to the unsaved in her classes and even to her teachers, as I have seen notes from them which speak loudly of her joyful spirit and testimony. She too has been lonely, but it has also challenged her to trust her God for all things. Our children have been home-educated all of their lives. The best part is that they both share what they are learning and I am able to use the spiritual learning in the teaching of our other daughters and the ladies Bible study I lead, and the tech education has helped me in running my husband’s office for his business in a better and more efficient way. They desire to be stay at home moms and we pray for their spouses daily, but their college education seems to be only preparing them to better wives in assisting their husbands some day. I never thought our daughters would be away from home for education like this, but God has led and we are thankful for His faithfulness as we trust Him with our most precious posessions. Hardest part? I miss them terribly.
February 6th, 2006 at 10:12 pm
Wow, Carmon, this is a tremendous topic, and I am so glad that you approached this. Growing up, I always knew that I would go to college. It wasn’t even a question in my family. The only question was what I would study. My dad was a factory worker, and endured a lot of lay-offs and strikes, etc, and my parents didn’t want any of their kids to endure that kind of stress in their adult lives. My mom practically insisted that I go into nursing (she’s a nurse, too), even though I had no interest in it whatsoever. In high school, I remember telling my guidance counselor (they scheduled our classes for each semester) that I wanted to take a sewing class. He looked at me kind of funny, cleared his throat, and said, “Well, that isn’t a class that we encourage college-bound girls to take.” All through high school, and then on into college, I took class after class that, for the most part, did nothing to prepare me for the life that I now lead. I would give anything to have been taught and thoroughly grounded in homemaking skills, cooking, running and keeping a home, etc. It makes me a little sad to think about how much energy and time I poured into subjects that were “requirements”, but whose value was over once the classes were passed and finished. I would love to know how to sew…but I don’t. And I would love to know how to do needlework, or crochet, or how to cook something that wasn’t from a cookbook….but I don’t. And it’s awfully hard to have time to really master those things when you have 4 children and a busy home life. I think there’s a fairly small window of time in a girl’s life when she can learn and master the skills required to run a home, and if she doesn’t, she is kind of “domestically handicapped” all the rest of her life.
This issue has really been in the front of my mind the past year or so because we had our first daughter two years ago. I think a LOT about how her expectations of her adult life will be shaped by what she sees in me. My mom,(a quasi-feminist), worked all my growing up years, never really teaching me anything about running a home, and sometimes, when things are stressful with the kids and the homeschooling, and the house, etc, the thought crosses my mind -briefly- that if I were working, I could “get a break” from all of this. I can’t speak for others but, for me, college planted a lot of seeds of feminism in my soul, even though I grew up always wanting to be a mom and have a family. There is SUCH a strong, pervasive spirit of feminism on college campuses, and I think that young women are WAY more susceptible to its sway than they even know. Young women are making LIFETIME choices about the way that they will live out their days, and when they have feminist-minded instructors (and almost ALL of them are) constantly brainwashing them with feminist ideals, it can be very difficult for even the best girls to make the right choices amidst all the confusion and turmoil they feel. So right now, I am leaning more towards the idea that my daughter won’t go to college, but instead will study and apprentice under women who can help teach her the skills that she will use all of her life. I want her to be able to embrace her GREATEST life’s work, that of being a mother, homemaker, and help-meet, with as many skills as possible.
My final thought on this subject touches on something that one of the other ladies said. If girls didn’t go to college, who would provide nursing care in the hospitals since the vast majority of nurses are women? Since I am a nurse, this is just something that I have thought about in relation to this subject.
Can’t wait to hear more of your thoughts on all of this, Carmon!
February 7th, 2006 at 1:56 am
I know I’m late (the story of my life), but if I could chime in… I don’t think a woman should ever feel like she has to go to college. I really dislike it when I see people promoting college saying things like, “A woman should have an education,” because an education and college are not only not necessarily synonymous, college can stunt a genuine education. And, of course, one may be well educated without college.
I think most of the time it’s a waste of time and money, and in many cases it is a problem.
But our oldest girl does go to college. She lives at home and goes two days a week. This year she is commuting with another homeschooled girl who is studying music.
Our daughter is majoring in history because that’s what she likes. But she started going to college for the health insurance. We moved here to a place in the middle of the corn fields in a very old farmhouse. She went to Texas the first summer to nanny for family friends with a medical crisis and five children under 9. When our friend’s mother was able to care for her children again, our daughter came home got very sick her first night home. She couldn’t spend two hours in our home without her eyes swelling shut, her breathing constricting, and her face swelling and looking so puffy that it looked like she’d been beaten. Turns out she’s allergic to, among other things, corn pollen. We are quite literally in the midst of corn fields- our street is two miles long, has three houses on it, and the rest is corn and soybeans.
Basically, in our case, she could go to college and afford treatment for her allergies, or she could not live at home any more.
College seemed the better choice available to us.
She would love to be married and living in her own home. Hasn’t happened. You can join us in praying that the right guy comes to our little area.=)
Our house is so small and so well peopled, that she does half the cooking and nearly half the cleaning, helps me with the youngest two and still has time to run a small business she owns (an antique booth in a mall and a book business) and do her school work and make good grades.
Our new house will be done being built about the time our insurance will no longer cover her whether she is enrolled in school or not. We hope she can breathe there, because it’s still on our property and so still near corn fields, although not quite so completely surrounded by them.
February 7th, 2006 at 8:01 am
DHM, I appreciate that you commented on this. Your situation is one that I have been intending to discuss as I know another family in similar straits. I will add it to the list.
February 7th, 2006 at 8:33 am
I feel that if more men would be doing what they are supposed to do (make a home for wife and family) than women would not need to fend for themselves. I knew NO men who were doing this when I was single. I went to nursing school close to home and I was making more money than the single guys around me. The Church needs to fix the young men around here who are wasting their time. The girls are pursuing marriage and the men are sitting at home twiddling their thumbs. This is pretty harsh but I am very disappointed in them. I have boys now (yes, I did get married to a real man who beleived it was important to get a real job to support a family, they are very hard to find, btw)and I am determined that they will have the importance of being a provider instilled in them. I had three girlfriends who each married guys with some college. After they were married they realized that they would not be able to get a real job to support a home and family. So they went BACK to school to get a degree they could use and their wives had to support them or live with their parents until they were finished.
I guess I bring up this point because if the Christian guys were doing their part it would be much easier for the girls to stay home and prepare to be wives and mothers. Reality came to me when I realized that I better get a job that I would be able to support myself because the guys I knew couldn’t support a family if their life depended on it. I don’t believe you should even consider a potential spouse unless he is able to provide for you.
The Church is in serious need to, not only guide boys to be godly and well-versed in theology and doctrine, but become men.
February 7th, 2006 at 9:00 am
My mouth dropped open when I read this entry. I’m a graduate student in physics, working on my Ph.D. I’m also very happily married, and keeping our home for my husband and taking care of him is my top priority. Why does getting an education and taking care of a home have to be mutually exclusive? Women have the same brain matter as men – why not develop it? It’s extremely gratifying to me to learn about physics and mathematics and be in wonder about the creation God so amazingly gave us. My husband and I share this love of physics, as he’s also a graduate student in the field. It is incredibly wonderful and a tremendous blessing to be able to share life with him not only on a day-to-day living basis, but also mentally and academically.
Christians have a responsibility to develop their minds and always be ready to give an answer for what they believe. To me, this responsibility includes being well-educated about all aspects of life, including science and other academic areas.
February 7th, 2006 at 9:06 am
Where does the Bible say that a female has to discontinue her formal education based on her age? And, why should we say it should stop at the end of high school? Maybe, their education should stop at 5th grade – old enough to write and read – and then stay at home and learn from her mother the rest of the life skills that she is expected to know. If that is the case – why go to school at all! Just stay at home and learn from the Mother and Grandmother everything that a “good woman” is supposed to know.
The educational graduations are set by our culture and it is ridiculous to tell a woman that she cannot continue her education based on the fact that her reproductive organs are all on the inside.
February 7th, 2006 at 9:16 am
WOW !I have never seen such a story that can be argued both ways.We have a 14 year old daughter and eventually she woud have to learn smoething,so why not college.I wish I had college so that during the times my husband was unemployed I could have gone out and earned enough money to support us instead of moving all around the country.
On the other hand I probaly won’t send my daughter to college=local community maybe.She is in public school and is not on the college track.The school offers a career track that has classes one can take to help them be out in the world if needed or to use for volunteering if needed or wanted.
February 7th, 2006 at 10:16 am
While I agree that it is not *necessary* to send a daughter to college (any more than it is to send a son), I equally can’t help but wonder what the big deal is about sending her. There are many places a daughter can go that aren’t big institutions–our local community college is a fine example, as is distance learning via cyberspace.
Spurgeon considered himself BLESSED that his wife had such a command of Biblical languages–her father could teach her Hebrew because he had been trained himself, but many parents don’t have that ability…so what’s the big deal if the daughter feels like she should study those things and relies on a college to do so? God isn’t going to tell us what her future husband needs…but He will tell her. Is it then really our busines to tsk, tsk and assume that she’s not following God’s will?
Another example from my overflowing basket: I have a friend (and mom of 7, homeschooling) who is a CPA and her degree is well used in her career at home. Not only does she do the books and the taxes for her husband’s computer business, but she also is able to earn a little $ from home when times are tough via her skills. She also helped our entire church with taxes and tax questions. It was awesome!
When someone says having an Accountant degree as a wife and mother is not godly, I sort of…scratch my head. I’m not sure why there is this need for over-reaching Scripture (ie, going beyond the Biblical examples and mandates) and attempting to define what “helpmeet” looks like in today’s world. College doesn’t have to be for everybody, no, but can be a beautiful addition to the homemaking skills of a competant daughter. Higher learning is not antithetical to keeping a home, helping a husband, and homeschooling a passel of children. (And I can’t help but get annoyed when we are told that it is).
The problem is the feminist ideal that tells us home-keeping is “lesser than,” but higher education is a worthy goal. Makes a woman want to roll her eyes, yes… But let’s be careful to keep our logic about us. The problem isn’t higher education. The problem is the feminist interpretation of what it is for.
February 7th, 2006 at 10:34 am
I’m not a Christian – in fact I’m a bit of a militant atheist and a feminist on top of all that, but I can still come up with at least one good reason a young Christian woman should go to college, even in your framework of headship/helpmeet (despite fundamentally disagreeing with that framework)
And that reason is for her future children. I’ve noticed that many conservative Christians have lots of kids and then homeschool them. A laudable practise really, because public education just doesn’t cut it. But homeschooling is hard work, and love for God and love for the children just isn’t enough to do a good job at it. I really believe that parents who want to homeschool should make sure to thoroughly educate themselves.
February 7th, 2006 at 10:40 am
Oh, and another thing, to the woman who is concerned her son wouldn’t make a good living as a welder – there is a severe shortage of trades in Alberta, Canada, and we’d love to have him!
February 7th, 2006 at 11:05 am
I do agree with you mostly, but also I do not think that a higher education is usually wrong. You can now do alot of courses at home just like homeschool. Learning is not wrong, I would like to learn some more things so I can teach my children better at home, I do not know if going to college is the way to learn that or not really, but there are sometimes a class or 2 you can take that can help you along. High school used to be looked at like college is today and that is why the Amish do not go past 8th grade. I have never gone to college, myself, but may take a few classes here and there if I need them or for fun. I thought about taking cooking classes or EMT classes or even recently learning how to sell real Estate. The main reason I think that is I am in a tight spot with having a husband is disabled and unable to work at all or really care for the children for long periods of time, so I need to be able to work from home to support us beyond his disability. I do not think I will ever get a degree, but I may take things that will help us to make a better income without sacrificing my childrens well being. Also so perhaps I would be able to homeschool them better.
So, my thoughts- College is not always right, but it is not always wrong either.
February 7th, 2006 at 11:11 am
I have some comments and would like to share my story. I definitely agree with Molly’s opening sentence, that while college is not necessary, it is also not forbidden.
I was home schooled for 11.5 of 13 years (including kindergarten). I am the oldest of 8 kids, and my mom stayed home once I was born and is still at home. She taught me cooking and sewing and needlework. Without her I couldn’t spell, or probably read or write =). My dad is the head of the IT (computer) department of a missions organization, and I definitely got my technical inclinations from him! After high school, I went to a private (non-religious) engineering school. I always planned to go to college; it was not something I was pressured into nor discouraged from, but I definitely looked forward to more learning.
Although the college I went to wasn’t a Christian school, there was a large group of Christians there, and I grew immensely in my faith from discussions there. I met my husband there, and we dated all through college. He is a wonderful, godly man, and I am so thankful for him. I graduated Summa Cum Laude with a bachelor’s degree in Mechanical Engineering.
My husband and I have been married for almost three years now. We are anxiously awaiting children, but at this point have none. We are both working as mechanical engineers. I am looking forward to becoming a stay-at-home mom, but right now am certain that God has me exactly where he wants me. We have been able to help my family financially, as well as pay off the loans it took to pay for the expensive private engineering degree. My husband and I can help each other with problems at work, bounce ideas off of each other, and commiserate about common problems we run across with the software we use.
I have struggled with whether I am in the right place at times. The idea of staying home all day baking and sewing, and being able to keep our house clean, is VERY attractive. Right now my husband cooks dinner more often than I do. But much prayer and circumstances have shown again and again that this is the calling God has for me. When we do have children (hopefully soon, but in God’s time), I know that what I have learned in college and on the job will come in handy as a mom.
I definitely have the utmost respect for women who decide not to go to college, and I think parents should be involved in that decision. I think there can be a huge danger in going off to college because that’s “what you do when you graduate from high school.” But I cannot agree that “… sending daughters to college is generally wrong…”
I hope this isn’t too rambling, and I don’t want to be harsh at all. I know I’m kind of an outsider, and haven’t read your blog before, but this is something I’ve been thinking through a lot in the last few months. Writing it out is kind of a next step for me, and hopefully I have left some food for thought.
months.
February 7th, 2006 at 11:21 am
Carmon, I should also add that in our situation college has been free or nearly so- certainly cheaper than the medical bills would have been. And as retired military, our insurance covers the Progeny until they are 23 if they are in college.
In another few months it will be completely free to any of our children who wish to go to college so long as they are attending a state school. We are not so sanguine about all of the children going because they don’t have the same personalities and strengths as our Head Girl, and we are very grateful that they don’t have the same health issues. We would be more interested looking into online classes for a couple of the girls if it seems that college is something their father decides they need to do. Frankly, just between you, me, and a thousand of our nearest and dearest strangers, we have one Progeny where sending her to live with another Christian family would have been a better choice than college if we had the same situation to consider.
Basically, I agree with you in general principles, and think that there are also individual situations that must be decided on a case by case basis with much prayer. I am very interested in reading more of what you have to say about this, and I also recognize that you may well see things about our situation that I do not, as it’s hard to be objective when your child is as sick as ours was- even when that child is legally an adult.=)
February 7th, 2006 at 12:53 pm
Molly, I will be addressing the general thoughts in posts as the week goes by, but I couldn’t let these two comments go by without commenting:
God isn’t going to tell us what her future husband needs…but He will tell her. Is it then really our busines to tsk, tsk and assume that she’s not following God’s will?
Yes, indeed, God does tell parents what our children’s future spouses need. He put them in positions of authority in order to impart God’s word to them and train them to be the people they should be when they are adults and raising their own families. I can assure you that many young people will vociferously insist that God is “leading” them to pursue a certain course when their feelings are leading them to do that. Wise parents will counsel them properly based on greater experience and hopefully a mature faith based on the clear precepts in God’s word.
When someone says having an Accountant degree as a wife and mother is not godly, I sort of…scratch my head. I’m not sure why there is this need for over-reaching Scripture (ie, going beyond the Biblical examples and mandates) and attempting to define what “helpmeet†looks like in today’s world. College doesn’t have to be for everybody, no, but can be a beautiful addition to the homemaking skills of a competant daughter. Higher learning is not antithetical to keeping a home, helping a husband, and homeschooling a passel of children. (And I can’t help but get annoyed when we are told that it is).
I never said I was against higher learning or even the pursuit of a degree in some cases. My premise is that the normative practice among Christians of sending their daughters to college is generally wrong. I will be further explaining in response to the many responses I have (and will) receive, but please do not be annoyed at me for saying something I did not say. If you read what I wrote last night, you will see that I believe education and learning can be good things for both ourselves and our daughters.
February 7th, 2006 at 1:08 pm
t. comfyshoes Says:
February 7th, 2006 at 10:40 am
“Oh, and another thing, to the woman who is concerned her son wouldn’t make a good living as a welder – there is a severe shortage of trades in Alberta, Canada, and we’d love to have him!”
That would be me, but it was actually my husband who was worried about it. He wants each of our sons to both have a trade and a college degree, but he’d been hoping our oldest son would go into plumbing because it’s so lucrative. Our son said if he only had to work on new construction, he’d be happy to learn plumbing, but fixing dirty toilets does not appeal to him. (I don’t blame him a bit for that sentiment.)
So he is working as an apprentice welder and plans to attend the community college after high school graduation. I will tell him what you said about the job situation in Alberta.
February 7th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
I am a Christian daughter, homeschooled through high school, and am being “sent to college”, I suppose you might say – I want to go.
My parents feel that an education is not only so that I will have something to support myself with, in case I’m ever on my own (widowed, whatever), but also because they feel that a college education can broaden your world in a positive way and help you be a better wife, mother, person, Christian, etc. I’m excited about going to college. I want to learn more scholastically and spiritually and I hope that I will be able to use my education in some kind of ministry/job before I have children.
Of all my Christian girl friends who plan to attend college, I think their reasons and their parents reasons are similar – some way to support yourself and also to help you grow mentally/scholastically and spiritually.
February 7th, 2006 at 3:17 pm
I very recently graduated from a very large college with a degree in a very male-dominated field. I grew up hearing from both of my parents that women are just as smart as men and not to let myself be intimidated into making less of myself. There was always the expectation that once I had children I would stay at home, but in the back of my mind I always thought I’d be more like my mom, who went back to work once my sister and I were in high school.
There were a lot of things that I liked about college. I absolutely loved getting to learn Organic Chemistry, Ancient Asian and European History, and French on a much higher level, from people who actually understood the subject well enough to teach me. I don’t learn well from textbooks, and the direction I went with my education in college was so far from what anyone I knew would have been able to help me with. I liked the opportunity it gave me to learn life lessons — like how to manage money and how to drive in crazy traffic — things that I had never learned at home. I also enjoyed making so many new friends. Living in a dorm with other women who were assigned randomly is a very interesting experience. I also met the man I will marry through my college church group.
But I think the biggest thing I learned from college is that I would rather be home. I would rather cook and clean and run errands all day than face the level of stress that I felt at college. I made very good grades, and the workload was not too stressful. It was simply that the work itself (the constant drive to achieve and beat everyone else) that I couldn’t take. By my third year I had firmly decided that if the business world was anything like college, it was NOT for me.
I do think that Nickey makes an excellent point about women midwives and OBGYNs — I was thinking about this just the other day and wondering what would happen to the field of women’s health if women no longer went to college. I’m interested to hear what you have to say.
February 7th, 2006 at 4:33 pm
Carmon,
A few things to quickly clarify:
I wasn’t referring to you personally, but to the general group that believes it is outside of God’s will for a daughter to attend college.
It must also be said that I agree that parents are given direction for their children (though I would say there is a balance–I think that Scripture clearly shows there is a time when God stops asking/telling the parents and switches over to informing the CHILD. Mary’s parents, for example, were not told that God was going to plant the Messiah in their daughters womb. We have no mention of them whatsover, even though our best informed-guessings find Mary somewhere in her teenage years. David’s father was not asked/told about David’s kingly annointing. He found out about it the same time everyone else did, even though David was young, somewhere under 17 years of age. Samuel, under the caregiver Eli, was given a word from God at a YOUNG age that was a direct judgement AGAINST the human authority he was serving. Woah! Etc…
So we have ample precident for saying that God’s leading may be given to a child and NOT to the parent (though, yes, we know that most of the time the parents will be involved. It’s just that I think that sometimes we take our spiritual oversight beyond what Scripture does. And, yes, I agree that often young adults will feel “called” to something, when in reality it’s more of an emotional leaning. But I think we should be very careful when we decide to wade in and tell a young person that they’re not being called when they say they are.)…
When I referred to the daughter who wanted to go to school, it was not intended to be one of *your* daughters but someone else’s daughter–an imaginary girl, if you will. The above mentioned group would say that she is wrong for attending a college. However, what I was trying to say was that the Holy Spirit is not giving *them* instruction for her life, but He is speaking with *her* (and HER parents). The camp that says, “sin!” is then casting judgement on that family, assuming that group is their personal Holy Spirit, yet they have not been appointed as such and never will be. That’s scary, to me, to be doing something that bold. If we want to be Protestants, we have to say we don’t add to Scripture, right? Meditating on how to APPLY specific Scriptures, yes. But saying that it is not godly for a woman to persue higher education because of our own personal viewpoints strikes me as crossing a line or two somewhere…maybe three.
Again, I’m not saying that YOU are doing that at all. I’m speaking more in annoyance to that camp (that I’ve come across via some members of the QF digest and some members of the MOMYS digest and some very conservative sites) that consider higher education (which is often upper highschool level courses as well as college) as unecessary and even harmful for daughters, thinking that it will only awaken desires in them that will cause them to be unhappy at home, and other interesting conclusions and justifications. To me, it devalues homekeeping to say that it is *beneath* higher education or continued learning. As you mentioned in one of your posts, coming home has opened doors of education that I never knew existed!
Also, I am SO so SOOOOOOOO greatful for the years I spent in Bible College as well as regular college. I don’t have the TIME now to study the Scriptures like I did then (for hours and hours), but that time soaking in the Scriptures and learning how to study it has proved INVALUABLE.
As for what is normative of Christian parents and their daughters, I don’t think the problem has much to do with college or no college. It has to do more with the fact that Christian parents are generally identical to their non-Christian counterparts, in that they only dimly view a woman’s calling as having anything at all to do with marrying a good man, bearing children, and managing a home. Views on college, majors, and careers are only manifestations of a much deeper root.
February 7th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
This subject could just about bring me to tears. So many questions. What about a daughter who wants to go to college? My oldest daughter (almost 16) would love to be a wife and mother (and knows it is a woman’s highest calling), but also desires to be “effective” for Christ in the meantime. She just spent a week at “Teen Pact” in Phoenix (with her dad) and had a terrific time. When her father and I have brought up some of these ideas re: daughters not attending college her eyes just reflect disappointment. She is a submissive daughter, loves the Lord, she would follow our leading if we encourage her to “stay home” and help me keep house and care for her six siblings. Hmmmm. What to do?
Also, another thing I continue to think about….. It seems to me that many “prominent” homeschooling families (I could name several names) have several adult children in their mid to late twenties are not married. The percentage of marriages is seems so small. Is this God’s will? I guess I am wondering if this will be my three daughter’s fate. We live in a small town and attend a small church. I don’t worry so much about my boys as they have the option of attending college or making their way in the world. I can just picture my daughters in there 30’s still in their same rooms, sleeping in their same beds, helping me in the kitchen even though I will most likely not need their help by then, but what else would they do??
Looking forward to your insights. Debbie
February 7th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
Btw, to my eyes, Debbie’s comment brings up these issues perfectly. She has apparently raised a WONDERFUL daughter. One must ask WHY it would be harmful to Debbie’s daughter to get out in the world? Just as much as I treasure the now, I also treasure the years I spent in Bible College and on short-term mission trips. They exposed me to the world–the 3rd world, the sinners world on Bourbon street, the fairgrounds, etc, and taught me MUCH about how to share the Lord with people I’d never previously met…but from the protected stance of a strong Christian environment. The years there spent studying theology and digging into the Word are still feeding me to this day–and now that I have 5 children (w/in a 7 year time span), how I am grateful for that Provision!
Now that I have a husband who is in full-time employment by our local church, it gives me SUCH a blessing to be his helpmate in those ways. We have late night discussion that I can actually FOLLOW, I can help him plan and prepare for studies, etc… God designed me for this, and prepared me for this, becuase I am called to be a helpmate to MY husband, who loves the fact that he has a wife he can talk to like that, or call on to help him in those ways.
How something like going to a good Bible College is harmful for a future homekeeper, I cannot figure out. She is not stepping out from her father’s authority by going somewhere like that, when he approves of it. (The idea that you have to be under the same roof or you’re not “under authority” is not Scriptural at all).
Btw, a Bible College is an excellent place to meet young men who are living lives full guns for God. I got married there, myself.
Okay, I’ll quit blogging on your blog, Carmon…
I know I’m a little passionate about this subject…I see the one side (those who raise their daughters as if Titus 2 didn’t exist) and agree that we’ve fallen way short of the mark. But I see the other side and I can’t help but grimace as the light is dulled out of eyes that WERE full of hope and promise…and are dimmed by a “mandate” that isn’t even Scriptural.
My daughters are currently 7 and 5. Whether they go to college or not, I really don’t care. I just want them to know God. Mostly I just watch our church’s families deal with their older teenage daughters…and it’s there that I’ve seen both extremes up close and personal. One girl is now 24 and miserable. All the sparkling light has been extinguished from her eyes, because her family does not believe that girls should leave their father’s home until they are married. Living in the backwoods of Alaska doesn’t provide many prospects, though. She has gone from someone bubbly and alive to someone uncaring and without hope. She doesn’t dare defy them, though, becuase if she does, she thinks she will be rebelling against GOD.
You’ll never hear a word of complaint out of her, but the difference between what she was like at 18 and what she is now is heartbreaking. They think they are being righteous. I think they have been foolish. They get a household servant. She gets to watch her dreams drift away. The really sad part is that it’s all being chalked up to as God’s doing, when in reality, it’s what happens when we take Scripture and add to it, considering our applications as God-breathed as the original writ.
February 7th, 2006 at 6:10 pm
Chiming in as a daughter who will soon be 19 — The biggest problem I have with girls going to college is that they don’t learn to be keepers at home in that frame work. If they’re gone to college, or even taking local courses and then working full-time to pay for it when are they learning to be a keeper at home?
If they can’t find things to occupy their, time, hands, and minds at 18 or 19 what makes one think they will be able to do so when they get married at 23? Marriage doesn’t change what a girl has learned to keep busy with.
I’ve seen girls get married from college and they’re clueless about how to make a house a HOME. Oh, they might be able to mend, clean, and cook – but surely there is much more to making a home then those superficial things.
If they’re bored at home at 18 — they will be after marriage too.
Personally, I find a LOT of things to fill every day with. In fact, more then I can possibly DO every day. I work about an hour a day outside the home (as a school crossing guard) and other than the occasional babysitting time I’m always at home. And I love it. I couldn’t be happier. When I get married I won’t have to adjust to being happy at home because I already am.
Yes, the greatest desire of my heart is to get married and take care of my own home, a husband and Lord willing children, but just because I don’t have those things now doesn’t mean I can’t actively prepare for that role.
Why do girls pour the most fruitful times of their lives into ‘futhering’ their education into something that they might not ever use? Homemaking skills WILL be used — if they want to be wives and mothers. Why not devote this time to developing those skills to a T. There is no end to the things that can be learned to make a house into a God-glorifying home.
Where do we find daughters in the Bible? Serving their families. That should speak loudly I think, but for some reason it just doesn’t.
And I hear what the other commentors are saying. What are girls supposed to do? Where ARE all the good men? I don’t know for sure where ALL the good men are, but I just need one and until the Lord sees fit to send him my way I’ll be faithful (with the Lords help) in preparing to the best of my ability to fulfill the role of wife, mother, and homemaker in such a way that will ‘excel them all’. No, I don’t believe girls should be stupid and not know anything beyond math and writing. I love theology, discussing and debating it. I’m interested in politics and lots of other things. I can talk about them — I don’t believe girls must be underneath their husband in intellectual endeavors… men need companions and women they can look to for Godly wisdom and guidance in different things.
As far as what girls are supposed to do… this is a time in our lives when we have a lot of time to use in the way we see fit (with our parents blessing) there are countless people who can use a helping hand. Namely our mothers. How sad it is when I see a 18 year old girl that a mother has poured her life into traipse off to work or college every day leaving her mother at home to tend to everything… and never does the daughter lift a finger to help. How much my mother has given me to bring me to where I am today. Surely the least I can do is return that by helping her in the household tasks in the time I have left at home.
If a girl would set her heart towards home she CAN find things to do… it’s just not the easiest nor is it the accepted route. You get weird looks and people probably think you’re lazy. But since when do we look to the world for approval? Surely the approval of parents and our Lord should be more important.
February 7th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Just one more thing..(Part II)…..if it were up to me and I were to be totally honest, I see my daughter functioning as an awesome lawyer, judge, or conservative political activist. She has always had a love and passion (at age 8, she scribbled on her piano notebook “Jodie For President” ) for this sort of thing. She has always excelled in school(homeschool)and has scored post high school on her Stanford Achievement Tests since the 7th grade. As I said before, she does recognize being a wife and mother as the ulitmate calling, but I even find myself wondering about her. I am confidant that if the Lord were to bring “the one” into her life she would “drop everything” and happily fulfill that calling. Again, I don’t see many examples this sort of thing happening – of “adult” homeschool graduates staying home and finding a mate. It seems as though most continue to live at home and are productive. Not a bad thing, but I can’t help but think it might be limiting. Is this the picture I should present to my daughter? Be content here at home with me until the Lord brings “the one”. I just have a hard time with this. ****I**** would feel sorry for her. She would accept it in humility I know. She would apply herself 100% like she does with everything (perfectionist type), she would be prepared to have a home of her own.
May the Lord change our hearts and give us new understanding as to what He has called our daughter to be. Both my husband and I recognize certain giftings in our daughter and I find myself secretly wondering “what if” she had been born a boy. She probably wonders the same thing at times. She a is sweetheart and wants to honor us as her parents in all areas. I guess clarity in this area is needed.
Again looking forward to your insights~Debbie
February 7th, 2006 at 8:46 pm
Chiming in here as a 23-year-old daughter …
The issue of a young woman’s single years is a very real one. I think the median marriage age now is around 25-27; maybe that SHOULD be different in conservative Christian circles, but I’m not sure that it IS. I know many young women who devoted considerable time in their teens and early twenties to learning the art of homemaking, but you can reach a point where you’ve pretty much learned all you can learn without actually having a home of your own. Some girls accomplish this before high school graduation. In those cases, I don’t think they impoverish their future homes by pursuing more formal education–not as career preparation necessarily, but as something that will sharpen them personally and build skills for Kingdom work. (College might not be the only way to do this, but it might be one acceptable way.)
Many of those “first generation” homeschool grads who are now single women in their late 20’s or early 30’s are going back to college because they find that while they can get an education on their own, in the world we live in, they need credentials, too. Not because they want to make a name for themselves, but to qualify to minister in the ways that God’s called them to. It’s just something for parents to think about … chances are that your daughter will marry at some point, but if it’s not till 7 or 10 years after high school graduation, what will she do in the mean time that’s meaningful and stretching? Could college be a part of that, without detracting from her ability to be a full-time homemaker later on, if she marries?
(BTW, I say “they” because my own path has been different … I wanted to be a doctor from earliest childhood, and while I was raised to see wife- and motherhood as a high calling [and I do--enough that at many points along the way, I would probably have gladly exchanged the career plans for marriage], my parents encouraged me to follow what I feel to be God’s call and have prayed and advised me through the many decisions along the way.)
February 7th, 2006 at 9:16 pm
“because it is men in the Bible who are shown to be responsible for sitting in the gates and providing for their families, then…
The current normative practice of Christians sending daughters to college is generally wrong and can have negative consequences.”
This is a topic I find very interesting (I linked from Biblical Womanhood). I write my post as someone who is a conservative Christian homeschooler…and is also a college graduate and member of Phi Beta Kappa.
The question that always comes to my mind on this topic is why is it that a college education is a) seen by some as only related to “providing for families” and not valued for education, in and of itself, and b) seen in any way as antithetical to being an excellent Christian homemaker, wife, mother, etc.?
I personally found college to be a wonderful experience. I learned a great deal — not just in an educational sense, but for me it was also a period of growth and maturing. (And it was while working a summer job to help pay for my education that I met my Christian husband.)
College is not the only means to an “education,” of course; nor is it the only means toward growth. But it can be a very valuable and important experience for many young women. I’ll be the first to say I’m a skeptic of some of what goes on on college campuses — it’s a topic I sometimes write about on my blog. But at the same time I feel a little concerned at times with what I perceive as a move in some Christian circles toward rolling the clock backwards and insulating Christian women away from higher education or being “in the world” (not “of the world”). The “life of the mind” is every bit as important as the ability to do household tasks; and a well-educated wife can use her education as a helpmeet to her husband, when educating her children, studying the Bible, and so on. I use my education for a home business (I’m a proofreader), when writing my blog, and teaching my children (I was a history major and that’s everyone’s favorite subject around here, I wonder why?! grin).
The theory that a college education is “generally wrong” concerns me — that idea is based on what? I don’t see the connection between Biblical descriptions of womanly roles and a woman’s education needing to “cut off” by a certain age in order to fulfill those roles. Certainly, there can be “negative consequences” at college. But many life experiences can lead to “negative consequences.” If you are secure about the job you have done raising your child, I don’t know why college would be a particular worry.
We are currently looking at colleges for my 17-year-old daughter and doing a lot of prayer. Many of the colleges that interest her are Christian, such as Wheaton and Biola. Some have Christian roots but are no longer “Christian,” yet they are fine schools. We don’t know what we’ll be able to afford (much depends on scholarships and financial aid) but we are very excited for her. She is very appreciative of the opportunity, and I don’t find the idea of her leaving for school sad at all. She certainly lifts a finger to help when she is here (she is her youngest brother’s main history “teacher,” for one thing!). She will also one day be a wonderful wife, mother, and homemaker.
I know “tone” doesn’t always come across well on paper, so please know the above is meant strictly in a conversational, friendly “discussion” way.
I enjoyed reading everyone’s posts and will look forward to reading more points of view. Best wishes, Laura
February 8th, 2006 at 6:00 am
I can’t believe I saw the phrase “marry off one’s daughter” up there somewhere.
I am currently finishing my final year of a university degree (Australian equivalent to college) so, of course, you know what camp I am in.
Before I open my mouth and say something stupid, I’d love to know where you’re coming from. As in, what, specifically, makes you say that sending girls to college is a bad idea? I admit freely that college is possibly one of society’s most secular forums, and is doing terrible philosophical-brainwashing-type things to our youth, but if that were the only thing, well, I fail to see how it could be any more wrong for girls than it is for boys.
I believe that if a person has brought their child up to know, understand, and love God, then the experience of university will strengthen their faith through challenging it, rather than eradicating it. It has been so in my experience, and in that of many of my friends.
For anyone that may be reading and wondering about whether or not to send their child to college, I say go for it. Have a little faith in God. He does not let His own go astray so easily.
To anyone else reading who may be overly concerned about their daughter’s marital status, I say this: Have a care. There are few things on this earth more demoralizing than being told on the one hand that you should be married, and on the other hand, not being able to get a man to even look sideways at you.
February 8th, 2006 at 9:10 am
Folks, I just wanted to noted that Carmon requested that we all hold off on further contributions to the thread ’til she’s had some time to sort through things. I thought I’d point that out since some appear to be coming into this conversation from another site, and therefore might not have noticed Carmon’s request in her most recent post.
February 8th, 2006 at 9:31 am
Not meaning to be flip: but on this reasoning, perhaps it would be best not to teach a young woman to read… ?
February 8th, 2006 at 12:22 pm
Actually, that was very flip. And if you are able to read, you will have read all I have been writing on this and noted my position that I am not against educated women. You might also click on the library tour in my sidebar to see what I think about reading. You might also have read my request in my latest post for this part of the discussion to come to an end.
February 8th, 2006 at 2:09 pm
I’m very grateful for a mother who encouraged my sister and I to go to college and at the same time taught us how to be good housekeepers before we left for college. (My parents are missionaries, and they had to send their kids a continent away to college.) I’m also grateful for a mother that knew that her daughters could handle being homemakers with “half a brain tied behind their backs.” She knew that there’s more to life than being a wife/mother/homemaker. My mom “wore many hats” and her college education helped her do that. She’s also a godly missionary, and a great homeschool teacher!
You said: “The current normative practice of Christians sending daughters to college is generally wrong and can have negative consequences.”
By “wrong” do you mean “sin”? Did my mother sin when she went to college? Did my sister and I sin by going to college? Or better yet, did my parents sin when they sent us to college?
On the other hand, I’m not sure how something can be “generally wrong”. It’s either wrong or right. Otherwise you’re practicing subjective truth which we all know is wrong.
I believe that pursuing our God-given interests and aspirations is right. I believe that being a good steward of the gray matter that God has given us is right (no matter how you do that.)
I believe not going to college has negative consequences. Is it wrong not to go to college? No. No more than going to college is wrong.
I’m afraid for young women that visit your blog and are influenced to think like you and will give up great opportunities to become who God wants them to be by going to college. I’m afraid that they’ll decide that not going to college is the biblical approach to life and miss out on many wonderful experiences that could benefit them spiritually.
I would re-visit your statement if I were you…
February 8th, 2006 at 2:43 pm
Elizabeth,
Is this the only post you have read as I have discussed this topic this week? You must have missed my revised statement, though I think you saw it on Crystal’s blog. You also must have missed the gist of what I said about “current normative practice.” Reading your view of the benefits of college, though, I don’t think you will agree with what I’m saying there either, though I plan to continue to elaborate on it.
In my latests post I asked for the comments on this to cease (and Miss Kyriosity kindly mentioned it again just above your comment) as I now want to have a chance to address the main points made by those who answered my original question about reasons for sending daughters to college. I will quickly address you now, but not beyond this comment.
You say: I’m afraid for young women that visit your blog and are influenced to think like you and will give up great opportunities to become who God wants them to be by going to college.
This is the common attitude I see today, and the implication is that those young women who stay home to pursue their interests and talents are choosing second-best and will have a sub-standard education. My hope is to show that this is not true and that for many, perhaps staying home will be of more benefit and open up more opportunities than college will.
Not sure what the “half a brain tied behind their backs” remark means. And it’s “my sister and me,” not “my sister and I.” I learned that in a book
.
February 8th, 2006 at 3:09 pm
I didn’t see your request for comments to cease until after I made it.
Staying home isn’t second best, it’s just not best for everyone. Going to college isn’t second best either. My point is that you can’t draw a line on this issue and say what is best for Christian girls.
You’ve heard, the phrase, “Fight with one hand tied behind your back.” Well, it’s the same principle in “being a homemaker with half a brain tied behind your back.” Just a clever way of saying that being a homemaker wouldn’t engage our full mental capacities.
I appologize for my grammatical mistakes. Thanks for pointing that out so “kindly”.
February 8th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Elizabeth, I understand the phrase, which I heard Rush Limbaugh often use when I used to listen to him in the 1980s. I just wasn’t sure I understood your use of it. Now that you’ve explained it, I’m a bit nonplussed. Do you mean to say that because I’m just a homemaker, I’m not using full brain capacity? Or do you mean that your brain is much more productive than mine because you have a college degree and I don’t? It does sound rather like an insult.
I’m in the process of editing a book, so I often can’t help myself when I notice such mistakes. It’s a cross my children often have to bear. BTW, the period belongs inside the quote marks, unless you are English (as in, one who is from England), when it is proper to leave it outside. Perhaps that will help you if you have any papers to write for school.
February 9th, 2006 at 8:50 am
My comment was not intended to be insulting, by any means! Neither was I comparing myself to you (or anyone else), in any way. I appologize if you were insulted. I always thought my mom was pretty clever in coming up with it, but that’s besides the point.
She wanted to make sure we knew that we could pursue an education or different interests if we wanted because we had the mental capacity to do so. I have a great mom! She’s always been very encouraging.
I believe it was her way to let us know that she thought she had smart/talented daughters. But then again, all mothers think that.
And by mentioning that comment, I simply wanted to make the point that my parents, who are Chrstians, encouraged us to go to college and pursue our interests and dreams. They knew we were cut out for it and encouraged us towards that end.
You wanted to know why Christian parents would send their daughters to college: my parents did it because they knew we could do it and knew the multiple benefits that came from it, regardless of what we dedicated our life to after college.
I’m done with school, but thanks for the tip. I still struggle with English, since it is my second language. Some things just don’t seem “right” in English; it’s such a strange language.
February 10th, 2006 at 5:40 pm
[...] Over at Buried Teasure blog Carmon and the ladies are discussing women and college. To go or not to go, that is the question. I may add my two cents to the discussion in a post here soon. In the meantime, what do you think? Should young ladies go to college? If so, why? If not, why not? [...]
February 11th, 2006 at 5:27 am
I am currently a senior in college and will be graduating in May. Although I am getting married in a few months, I feel that college has prepared me more to be a wife and mother than staying at home ever would. I had my own room and bathroom at home. Now I share a room with three other girls and a bathroom with 50 other girls! It was quite a change! I don’t have my own closet, desk, or dresser anymore. I have learned to share. I have learned to deal with problems and pick up on tension in the room. Also the academic education has broadened my mind. I feel more prepared should my fiance and I choose to homeschool our children. My fiance has a college degree and having one myself puts us on the same level intellectually. I will complete him more intellectually because we have the same understanding and knowledge. I think that the option should always be open for girls to go to college or stay home. If I had stayed home though, I would have missed finding the godly, Christian man the Lord had for me to marry.
February 14th, 2006 at 5:53 am
Since you have closed comments on the related blog entry, I will post this here. Please note that Albert Einstein did receive a college degree – a doctorate, from a university. You can’t get a doctorate in physics via home-study courses.
February 14th, 2006 at 8:10 am
Thank you, Heather, for pointing that out. I have fixed it in the post. However, I did just receive an offer in my email for a Ph.D. from an online university
. That offer may not have been legitimate, but there are legitimate universities offering online courses to complete advanced degrees in many subject areas, including Ph.Ds.
February 14th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
I’m a 25-year old Christian single girl who went to college and graduated with Bachelor’s degree. I am now using that degree in a ministry and know that it was God’s will for my life to go to college. I really cannot seem to understand why you would think that a college education would have negative consequences. I would be interested to hear these negative consequences.
February 16th, 2006 at 10:14 pm
[...] Note: I have been turning off comments, to the frustration of many, because I just don’t have the time or energy right now to devote to a big debate on these posts. Rotten Tomatoes was the opportunity for the loyal opposition to lob their bombs. However, I will leave the comments turned on from henceforth, though I will not respond to comments that ignore what I’ve written or cover the same ground again. [...]
February 18th, 2006 at 6:42 am
A birthday wish and thoughts on college
Happy Birthday to Spunky Jr. My first blessing, Kristin, is 17 today. I am thankful f…
February 19th, 2006 at 11:53 am
What bothers me most about this discussion is not that young people/parents choose not to go/not to send their daughters to college, as the decision to focus one’s efforts on home life is definitely understandable and the best for some people. What bothers me is the declaration that it is “generally wrong” for all women to go to college. How could it be wrong for almost all women? I believe my earlier question “Why does getting an education and taking care of a home have to be mutually exclusive?” was not fully addressed. A woman can do both, with much success. I learned all I need to know about homemaking from my time of living at home with my parents, but I daresay I improved those skills during my four years of living in a dorm and two years living on my own during graduate school, before getting married, all while pursuing a bachelor’s degree in physics and performing & visual arts, and a master’s/doctorate in physics. I’m not saying this to boast, but to prove a point: a woman can still be home-minded while pursuing education.
I’m biased as a physicist, but another concern I have is that from the anecdotal evidence I’ve seen, homeschoolers and families who advocate distance learning rarely venture into the pure sciences. True, the humanities are more adaptable to (and sometimes even enhanced by) homestudy and that’s just great. We need Christian writers, musicians, editors, etc. But why are we raising a sector of Christians that avoid the pure sciences? As I commented above, you can’t get a doctorate in physics via home-study courses (the value of other higher-level degrees is questionable, but that’s a whole other discussion). Is this avoidance because the need for labs, expensive equipment/solutions/subjects, etc. is outside of the realm of what’s doable for the home? Is it because teaching such subjects is outside of the realm of what the normal homeschooling parents can do?
I know you can arrange to have your children take lab courses at traditional schools. That at least solves the secondary education issue. But do we avoid encouraging our children (women AND men) to pursue the sciences because for such work they MUST venture out into an outside institution of learning? If so, we are robbing both the general and Christian society from a great asset – young men and women excited to learn about a fascinating realm of God’s creation, and excited to share that knowledge with the world.
February 21st, 2006 at 7:08 am
[...] Carmon and several others at Buried Treasure Blog have been discussing whether or not it should be a default decision for young women to go to college. I am beginning to wonder whether most young men and young women wouldn’t receive a better education from working, reading, and living instead of spending four years in the artificial and very expensive environment of the university. I make this statement with one daughter in college now and a son who’s planning to attend college in the fall. It seems to me that if an education is the goal, Mr. L’Amour is right: anyone in our society who pursues an education can easily get one—and continue getting it for the remainder of his life. [...]