Victory in Jesus
We have been postmillennialists ever since reading Paradise Restored by David Chilton many years ago. Before that, we didn’t know that there was any other eschatological position but that promoted by Hal Lindsay. We read the newspapers and eagerly listened to the sermons which pointed out the latest prophecy being fulfilled by current events. But when we read David Chilton’s book, we had a revelation about the book of Revelation.
In a nutshell, postmillennialism is the belief that instead of the world getting worse and worse until the Tribulation when the Antichrist will wreak havoc on the planet and hopefully all the Christians will be whisked away to celestial safety (the plot of Left Behind), Christ’s death and resurrection were the death blow to sin and to Satan, and the curse has been reversed; over time, the world will be evangelized and what R.C. calls the “mop-up operation” will be complete, when the Son presents the Bride to the Father, and the wedding feast begins! Postmillennialism is an optimistic view of God’s program, and it says that Christ is victorious now, not in some future time after the Antichrist has his party. We are the ones who are throwing the party, and we don’t need to worry about the mark of the Beast because when we belong to God, His mark is permanently stamped on us (no, I’m not getting into the tattooing subject again!)
Though some views about postmillennialism may differ (sorry), those who hold to this view include Doug Wilson, R.C. Sproul, Jr., Doug Phillips, Gary DeMar and, apparently, Hank Hanegraff.
Doug Wilson recently mentioned on his blog (and my friend Cindy also noted) that Hank Hanegraff and Sigmund Brouwer (what, you think Tim LaHaye is the only one who is entitled to use a ghostwriter?) co-authored a novel called The Last Disciple about the events predicted by Revelation, which is based on preterism, or postmillennialism. While it may not be enduring literature, it might be worth reading to get an idea of how Matthew 23 and 24 and Revelation really were fulfilled in the terrible events of 70 A.D. in Jerusalem. Another book which gives insight into this period is For the Temple by G.A. Henty.
For some good teaching from David Chilton himself about the book of Revelation, here’s an mp3 from Word MP3.com (you may need to register to access it).
February 3rd, 2005 at 5:41 pm
[...] Odds and Ends03 Feb 2005 12:41 pm Eschatology Carmon has written about Postmillenialism. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject: It was ac [...]
February 2nd, 2005 at 5:54 pm
Rousas John Rushdooney wrote an excellent booklet explaining the meaning of post millennialism. In fact, it looks like it’s available free of charge at their website, http://www.chalcedon.edu
February 2nd, 2005 at 7:46 pm
You are right, Carmon-it is just “in the air” of standard evangelical Christianity that the rapture is a matter of fact/coming reality. The man (D’Arby) who started the unscriptural dichotomny of dispensationalism back in the first half of the 1800s really helped lead the majority of Christians today (with their Scofield Bibles) down a doctrinal black hole. Come to think of it, several religions with teachings disparate from Scripture arose around or by the 1850s (Mary Baker Eddy;s Christian Scientism, Seventh Day Adventism, etc.). Interesting. Makes me wonder where those faithful dads were back then to teach sound doctrine and protect the next generation from “every wind of doctrine”…
February 3rd, 2005 at 12:02 am
Molly, don’t forget Charles Finney and his easy-believism, seeker-sensitive sawdust trail. He also involved women in his ministry in leadership roles, paving the way for the feminist movement as women became purveyors of a social gospel rather than homekeepers who tended their own gardens.
Thanks, Dana!
February 3rd, 2005 at 12:03 am
Chilton and North were responsible for converting me to postmillenialism. One of my greatest fears as a dispensationalist was having Christ return while I was pregnant. I was afraid I might go through eternity in that condition!
If we are recommending something to research, then I would recommend going a step beyond the preterist postmil position and have a look at the historic postmil position.
February 3rd, 2005 at 12:35 am
Cheryl, that’s too funny! At least you wanted to be pregnant…there were actually quite a few in the 1970s who didn’t want to have children because they thought that Jesus was coming back anytime and they were worried about the tribulation.
See, I said there was more than one way to skin a postmillennialist. How about you recommend on your blog where there is info on the historic position and I’ll stick with the preterist position here…I’m not up to a commenting debate again so soon after the last one!
February 3rd, 2005 at 6:26 am
In the mennonite circles where I was raised you were taught one of two persuasions. You were either a pre or an ah. The premillennialists believed in the rapture. The ahmillennialists believed that He would not return until after the tribulation. Entire churches were divided on this issue. Most of the Mennonites in the East were ah. The Mennonites on the west coast were pre. I myself am in the pre camp.
February 3rd, 2005 at 6:29 am
“God’s Plan For Victory” by Rushdoony is an excellent booklet, as mentioned above, available via chalcedon. Here’s a direct link to the actual booklet (for purchase)
Two Partial-Preterists books which are interesting to compare: Gary DeMar’s “Last Days Madness” and Ken Gentry’s “He Shall Have Dominion”. Both excellent, but different.
I grew up in a Lindsey/Newspaper Eschatology household. I disliked it all along, and gladly looked at postmillenialism when I found out about it, sometime around when I discovered TULIP in the first place. TULIP came first, and then Postmillenialism.
“TULIP” I found out about in Theology I at a non-denom Christian college. I laugh whenever I tell this, it was a nice little jewish baptist professor.
I really had gone for 19 years being a Christian, but not seeing all truth in what was around me, and not every knowing the truth of the Reformation until that very day. So at 19 years of age, I switched to being Presbyterian.
I started out going to Key Biscayne Pres. every time I could get there.(S. Florida, school in Miami, lived north of there, and I toured with a singing group on some weekends). I finally had the privelage of going to Coral Ridge, and stayed there until moving to GA. Here we found an inability to actually find a good PCA church, and now are attending/members of a now infamous RPCUS church. 
Over 8 years now we’ve been here. Wow, time flies!
February 3rd, 2005 at 8:53 am
Amazing! I was just thinking this morning that I wanted to understand these things better! God is SO wonderful to help me like that and have you blog about it! Thanks so much!
February 3rd, 2005 at 8:54 am
Who do post-millenialists believe was the Anti-Christ?
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:00 am
Thanks, Keith. My web guy is aware of it and thinking of what to do about it. Sorry that you’ve been getting those vis the RSS.
What a coincidence, Marysue…I was at a Bible study last night where we listened to a sermon by an infamous RPCUS pastor (on tape), about Revelation
.
Mrs. Darling…postmils are really “ah-mils” as in: “Ah! I get it now!”
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:08 am
Jamie, they usually believe it was Nero, the persecutor of the church at the time Revelation was written. The website I gave with Chilton’s book has another there by him called The Great Tribulation which is a short commentary on Revelation. He wrote a much longer one (which is also there), called Days of Vengenace, and it has excerpts from the book of Josephus which show that many of the “woes” which were prophesied in Revelation were really fulfilled in the horrific time of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. David Chilton also shows what the rich symbolism of Revelation means from the Old Testament, not today’s newspapers; the Jewish Christians who read the letter would thoroughly understand that symbolism from their intimate knowledge of the Old Testament.
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:17 am
For some reason, I was never comfortable with the exegetical acrobatics done by the premils. So a couple years back I decided to truly look into the subject with an open mind. I haven’t made up my mind completely but am leaning strongly in the postmil direction after reading some Chilton and Keith Mathison’s An Eschatology of Hope. The postmil position makes sense to me because it brings the OT and the NT together so harmoniously. I get discouraged when 99% in my church just swallow the whole premil, pretrib position without even questioning whether there is another position out there. It’s frustrating that, like myself, most evangelicals don’t even know there is such a thing as post- and a- millenialism. So when you talk about it they think you’ve gone off the deep end into some new teaching.
By the way, correct me if I’m wrong, but postmils believe that Nero was the one spoken of in Revelation when 666 comes up.
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:31 am
I was convinced by R.C. Sproul’s The Last Days According to Jesus. It was hard reading, but worth it. I really didn’t see the Rapture and the literal 1000 year reign of Christ in the book of Revelation so I figured I was an ah. Then I read Sproul and came to realize I was a post. I think what I am truly is a pan. God is sovereign and I am called to obey His word because I love Him and it will all pan out how He has predestined it.
Speaking of weird theological things…
Has anyone else ever heard of the Abraham’s Bosom thing? I was at a Kay Arthur Bible Study about 2 years ago and that came up. It was a new one to me. It has do with Abraham’s Bosom is where the saints before Christ died went and that is where He “preached to those in chains.” After the cross Abraham’s Bosom no longer exists. It was a weird teaching. I went home and did all the study I could on it. The teaching and the Bible verses used to prove it seemed to be out of context. So is it just a weird dispensational thing that I hadn’t heard of before because I listen to sound teachers? Or am I missing something?
Dear Carmon,
I don’t blame you for not wanting contraversy again so soon:)
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:41 am
Eschatology
Carmon has written about Postmillenialism. Here are some of my thoughts on the subject:
It was actually our personal study of eschatology/Revelation that opened us up to the teaching of the Reformed doctrines.
The pastor (whom we liked very much)…
February 3rd, 2005 at 10:02 am
Sorry about the redundant “pings”, Carmon. I’m still kinda new at the “pinging” and “trackback” thing. I need to learn to chose one or the other.
For those of you not familiar with the way “pings” and “trackbacks” work, if you follow the link attached to “Bound By Grace”, you can read all of what I wrote on the subject. (I started to comment here, but it got too long, so I just made it a new post on my blog.)
February 3rd, 2005 at 10:28 am
Jamie, I misspoke…the term “antichrist” does not appear in the book of Revelation, and people mistakenly use that term interchangeably with the “Beast.” Antichrist does not specify one person, but to a heretical set of beliefs and those who perpetuate those beliefs. The Beast, however, is identified by Chilton as being the Roman Empire, and Nero specificially:
February 3rd, 2005 at 11:46 am
Nero…interesting…it’s probably too much for you to go into here, but sometime I’d be interested in understanding how you/they explain Rev. 13…cause I don’t remember Nero ever doing the things mentioned in that chapter.
I hadn’t realized Nero was quite so evil as all that, though…I’m rather glad I didn’t read about all his sins when I learned about him!
February 3rd, 2005 at 3:11 pm
Jamie, Gentry and Chilton’s books do an excellant job of explaining your question. What I came to realize was that these are not literal things being done but allegory’s or pictures which come directly from the Old Testament.
http://www.freebooks.com has these books online to be read or printed off. Free of course!
February 3rd, 2005 at 3:32 pm
Wow…I really disagree. I don’t see how anyone could think that Revelation, Daniel, and the things Jesus talked about in the Olivet discourse have been fulfilled. I believe we are clearly seeing some of those things revealed today, and some are coming.
I am not pre-trib rapture, though. The Bible is clear that there is only one second coming, and that’s after the Great Tribulation.
“But immediately after the tribulation of those days, they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:29)
1 Thess 4:13-5:9
“For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it [the day of the Lord, v. 2)] will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction (1 Thess. 5:2-3; 2 Thess. 2:3)
This has not happened. The Day of the Lord is apocalyptic–it’s the Day of Judgment. I urge you to reconsider this position in the light of the full counsel of the Word. Clearly, in the Olivet Discourse Jesus is talking about the end of the world: “And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then, finally, the end will come.” This has not happened.
I think it’s a grave error not to expect the Mark, not to expect the Tribulation. We are instructed over and over in the New Testament to watch, to persevere until the end, to endure. The parable of the ten virgins is a warning to watch, for the bridegroom is coming–and though there is no “secret” rapture, there will be some, like the five foolish virgins, who will be taken by surprise. This is why Jesus says several times in Matt 24 (and Paul says in 1 Thess) that we should take care not to be deceived. We cannot afford to sleep on this issue.
When does Jesus return?
February 3rd, 2005 at 6:13 pm
Kristen, I am not going to try to convince you in my little comments box that you are mistaken, but I recommend you at least read Chilton’s short book, The Great Tribulation, which I linked to above. As for saying “the day of the Lord” and the Great White Throne Judgement are the same: there are many “days of the Lord” written about in the Bible (if you take the “full counsel of the Word of God”). Read about the judgments brought on Israel for its apostasy in the Old Testament, and that’s what they are called. And yes, the gospel was preached to the whole known world before 70 A.D. That’s what Paul’s missionary journeys (and those of others) were about, and the visiting believers who were converted at the Passover who stayed in Jerusalem to be taught, but were later dispersed, went back to their countries to spread the gospel to those nations.
Edit for Kendra: See? I missed a forward slash and made everything stay italics till I checked back and noticed my booboo!
February 3rd, 2005 at 7:35 pm
Funny you mentioned Paradise Restored my husband is reading that now. We have had the book on our book shelves. He reads bits and pieces to me in the evening. He is loving it. We have been postmillennialists eversince we read a Christian History Magazine some years back on the subject. Of course we really never understood everything about it. However when fellow brothers and sisters in Christ get into heated debates we will lighten the mood by saying we are panmillennialists. IT WILL ALL PAN OUT IN THE END!
February 3rd, 2005 at 7:37 pm
I’m an i-don’t-know millenialist, but I do think it’s interesting that Hank Hanegraff says that he has memorized huge chunks of the book of Revelation, or maybe the whole book. Perhaps that discipline would give one some insight into the meaning of the book, in addition to time spent studying the text also.
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:27 pm
…okay, and what about long hair on men?
Just kidding-I foresee this discussion breaking a new record on number of posts. Perhaps all of us who have read more than (or other than) the Left Behind ‘hereseries’ at least agree that dispensationalism is mistaken. 
.
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:32 pm
LOL! I like the idea of an i-don’t-know millennialist, Sherry. I heavily lean towards postmil but I am so surrounded by premil and “Left Behind” fans that I try to be open to both ideas. In truth I think I’m the only one that knows anything about Roman history (though not a lot) in my circle of friends let alone ever looked at postmillennialist. I’m starving sometimes for someone to at least discuss the views with. I may pick up the new Hank Hanegraff book at some point and pass it around. That seems like an easier introduction to suggest than serious bible study. My husband thought it would be an interesting read as well, though he doesn’t take a stance on such things, which is why I’m safer as a “i-don’t-know millennialist” anyway. I do think that such views have an effect on how we view our Christian walk though.
February 3rd, 2005 at 9:45 pm
(Btw, this is the “other Molly).”
)
…Huh. I didn’t realize it was called “postmillenianism.” I was thinking it was “preterism” or “partial-preterism.” We really liked RC’s book on partial-preterism (The Last Days of Jesus Christ? can’t remember the title for sure–I’m horrible about that!), because going *full* preterist (all is done, there is no return of Christ, there is no end of the world, there is no end at all…) just doesn’t seem to jive with Scripture. But, speaking of *jiving w/ Scripture*, neither does the Dispensationalist doctrine that I grew up under.
There really are some Scriptures that make a WHOLE lot of sense in light of the fall of Jerusalem in 70ad. The historical account of that episode is incredible, even if Josephus is only halfway telling the truth, and very much fits into some of the Biblical prophecies that Dispensationalism boldly places in the “end times” file folder.
It’s an interesting search, in any case. I’m not quite sure what we “are,” personally…all I know is that we were Dispensationalist’s without realizing there even WAS any other viewpoint, and when our little Dispy doctrine got challenged (by some preterist friends), we eagerly took up the fight, expecting to easily blow them out of the water…
Only, that’s not quite what happened. We still don’t agree with our Preterist friends, but we dumped our Dispensationalism like a hot potato once we gave it a good close scrutinization ala Scripture.
Ok, I’m typing a novel here. Time to stop…
Molly (the other one–I can’t believe there are TWO Molly’s on here–I’m not used to having to share my name like this–harhar!)…
February 3rd, 2005 at 10:19 pm
For the record, Molly, I consider “full” preterism (all prophecy is fulfilled now, no resurrection, no Great White Throne Judgement) to be heretical.
Also, one reason I even bring this up here, and what Rushdoony points out in the booklet that Dana mentioned, is that eventually your eschatology has to affect how you live your daily life…whether your focus is just hanging on and implementing personal morality and trying to pull as many into the lifeboat as possible, or whether you see God as victorious King over every area of life and our job is to work in His kingdom, building it wherever we are called, changing culture at the same time we are practicing personal holiness. God’s law-word then becomes very important because it is what shows us how to live out our faith. Many homeschoolers think like reformed postmillennialists without understanding why
.
February 3rd, 2005 at 11:13 pm
Carmon, I am not up to a debate on eschatology or competing views of postmillenialism either. I do want to mention one thing though in answer the question of who the postmils believe the anti-Christ is: In historic postmillenialism it is the *office* of the Pope. When I get a chance, I’ll post some stuff from a historic postmill perspective on my blog, but it likely won’t happen soon. I have a new grandbaby to help look after!
D
February 4th, 2005 at 4:08 am
What would be the best book to review the prophecies of Daniel from a partial-preterist view? My mom likes to discuss the end times and especially Daniel. I have the worst time answering intelligently.
February 4th, 2005 at 7:42 am
I love this discussion. For those who are of the premil persuasion-please consider researching the history of your position and looking into the other positions. I believe it unwise to accept a doctrine just because it’s the most popular around. I’m not saying that’s what some of you are doing. I’m just saying that if you haven’t ever researched the whole thing from all sides, you probably don’t have the whole story.
February 4th, 2005 at 8:02 am
Cindy- Our church has a study on Daniel at our church website, reformationcovenant.org, (Fllow the Lord’s Day classes links from the home page.) that you can print off. Its aimed at the childrens’ SS classes, but don’t worry, we don’t believe in twaddle! I printed it off and plan to use it for myself, but it suggests reading Peter Leithart’s “A House For My Name”, so I plan to do that first. You may find that helpful. I hope that its OK to post that here!
February 4th, 2005 at 9:58 am
Thank-you, Kerri, that has already been helpful,especially about the 70 weeks. What about your Elder’s sermons on Daniel on MP3, do they cover prophecy?
February 4th, 2005 at 8:43 pm
The sermons are working through the book chapter by chapter, so they cover it as they come to it. It isn’t a prophecy study in particular, but dealing with the book as a whole. I’ve really enjoyed them, though I have to admit my eyes do glaze over from time to time
February 4th, 2005 at 8:46 pm
Just adding to the comments to see if we can get this one up towards 70+
. I’m a what-ever-my-husband-is millenialist!
February 4th, 2005 at 10:27 pm
Whew. I’ve wanted to comment on this but haven’t been sure what to say. There’s not really much I can can contribute. I don’t consider myself a baby Christian at all, but I’m definitely a baby to Reformed Doctrine. So much ahead of me yet to learn!
Just some random thoughts…In the recent Speechless post comments I mentioned Pastor Bob Beeman, my former pastor who discipled me as a new Christian. He’s the only person Jay and I have ever heard of (until now) who espouses the idea that Nero was the Anti-Christ. That really got us thinking.
On another note, as a fan of Keith Green’s music and former subscriber to the Green’s Last Days magazine, I used to read lots of tracts they put out by Charles Finney. I always thought he was a “good guy” (obviously didn’t know enough about him) until just a couple of years back when I heard Doug Phillips talking about how heretical his teachings were and how instrumental he was in the Sunday School movement and “false” revivals, etc.
On yet another note, Jay and I are both reading Keith Mathison’s Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? book right now. We both come from a dispensationalist background because that’s all we were ever taught, and Jay comes from a church in Georgia where the pastor is an author of several books and is extremely respected by many for his knowlege and intellect. Didn’t I say we have so much ahead of us that we have to learn??
February 6th, 2005 at 4:23 pm
I’ve been mulling over this thread for a couple of days. I have to say that I was a little bit offended that the general consensus seems to be that premillenialist only believe this way because they’ve never been taught better or been open-minded enough to research other views. Now I am sure no offense was intended, but if you go back and read some of the comments they do seem a little harsh. Maybe I’m just grouchy this week because I’m tired.
I guess the main thing I wanted to say is that there are some of us out here who are premillenialists because we have studied our Bible and this is the conclusion we have come to. I don’t agree with many popular authors though, as I think they try to create possibilites about prophecy that only God can imagine. But then as much as I admire Doug Phillips, there are some areas I would have to disagree with him in also. And to be honest, after reading Mr. Sproul’s blog the other day, I found him arrogant and contentious. Not that I disagreed with everything, but his tone definitely was not Christ-like.
All this to say, I think we can never say often enough that we need to keep our eyes on Christ, not on a favorite preacher or writer. And I’m sure Carmon would say not on her either. I will continue to come here and read, because for the most part I feel a kinship here that I do not have in my community. And I like the challenge to use my gray matter a little bit. And I thank Carmon for allowing us to discuss our differences in love.
Kris
February 6th, 2005 at 7:21 pm
Kris, thanks for giving your perspective and the reminder of where our focus should be.
I don’t think anyone is trying to gang up on anyone on this topic—remember that in the general Christian community the consensus is that premillennialism is the only biblical perspective and that what I believe is “out there.”
On my website I will probably touch on some touchy subject with regularity, and though I try to present my viewpoint with compassion and humility, if I believe something strongly, I’ll probably say so in a straightforward way. This could include topics such as women working, government schools, seeker-sensitive churches, modesty and even tattoos! As the readership here has grown, chances are that someone will be unhappy about something I say, no matter how hard I try to be tactful, particularly since I willingly choose to bring up such controversial subjects and I willingly choose to put myself on the unpopular side of most of them. I will continue, though, to strive to speak with kindness, as my purpose is to instruct and encourage.
Don’t give up on R.C. He has some excellent, encouraging and challenging things to say. Read some Martin Luther (I’m watching Luther tonight), and R.C. will seem like a pussycat in comparison
.
March 28th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Hi I stumbled across your website, I love it, it is very hard being a Preterist in the UK there are not many of us, and you are treated like a mad person or a heretic if anyone finds out you are one. I too am a R C Sproul fan and have found quite a few really good Preterist websites all in the USA
As Christians we should read what the Bible says, not turn it, twist it, add a bit etc, no where does it indicate Jesus would take thousands of years to return ! all the passages refer to something happening ’soon’
And I praise God for sending his son to die for us and to overcome Satan. Amen Tereza
February 23rd, 2009 at 7:47 am
I have been a Postmillenialist for some time now. Actually,Premillenialists did me a great deal of psychological damage as a young christian as I had come to faith beleiving through the bible that Christ was the real hope for the world becoming a better place.
But do all postmillenialists have to be preterists? I hold firmly to the classical historisist interpretation of Revelation as well, and beleive that the papacy (not any one pope) is anti-christ and that through the increasing victory of the true gospel the Roman edifice will soon crumble.